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Historical Jesus

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Don't you understand English?? Can't you read??/

I GO BY EVIDENCE not by WHO!!!

Sure I understand English and can read. That is how I know that "??" and "??/" are nonsensical constructs. Thus the interrogatory falls right back in your lap since, clearly, grammar is beyond your ken.

As to this garbage, "I GO BY EVIDENCE" you do not. You have steadfastly refused to cite any source. Maybe you do have sources, nobody knows because you refuse to say anything about those. If you actually had sources, then you would cite such sources. But you refuse to do so.

Thus, all we have to go on is your say-so. And I am certain that you realise exactly how credible an unsupported assertion really is.

Please do not let that stop you, though. The utterly unevidenced posts are amusing.
 
OK, well I think there are Scholars who argue and have argued that all the Pauline Epistles are not forgeries and are correctly ttributed to Paul.

Those sources are the writings of antiquity like those attributed to Philo, Pliny the Elder, Josephus, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the younger, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Plutarch, Lucian, Tertullian, Julian, Theophilus, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Origen, Hippolytus, the Sinaiticus Codex and others.

See how that doesn't work?

Well, your claim is false that is why it would never ever work for you.

I am asking you a question. Can you, or can you not, provide a scholarly source (other than your own personal belief) which states that "all the Pauline Epistles are forgeries or falsely attributed to Paul" or something similar to that. Just one will do for a start - a link to a scholarly source, or even a book, chapter & page with the name of the author?

You seem to be genuinely ignorant of arguments made against the historicity of Jesus and Paul.

Here is one reference to historian Arthur Drews who argued against the historicity of Jesus, that Paul's conversion is a forgery and that the Epistles were written in the middle of the 2nd century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Drews

In his 1924 book The Origin of Christianity in Gnosticism, Drews developed the hypothesis of the derivation of Christianity from a gnosticism environment. In Drews's own words (in Klaus Schilling's "English Summary" of The Denial of the Historicity of Jesus):

...........Paul is recklessly misunderstood by those who try to read anything Historical Jesus-ish into it.

The conversion of Paul in the Acts of the Apostles is a mere forgery from various Tanakh passages... [The epistles] are from Christian mystics of the middle of the second century.
Paul is thus the strongest witness against the Historical Jesus hypothesis...John's Gnostic origin is more evident than that of the synoptics. Its acceptance proves that even the Church wasn't concerned with historical facts at all. [emphasis added]

In The Myth of Mary (1928), which reads as Jesus's Family and Entourage Exposed, Drews asserted that all the characters around Jesus were as imaginary and fantastic as Jesus himself.

Based on my research the characters Jesus, the disciples and Paul are imaginary and fantastic.
 
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Well, your claim is false that is why it would never ever work for you.
"Never, ever"? Are you five?


You seem to be genuinely ignorant of arguments made against the historicity of Jesus and Paul.
You have yet to present a case.

Here is one reference to historian Arthur Drews who argued against the historicity of Jesus, that Paul's conversion is a forgery and that the Epistles were written in the middle of the 2nd century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Drews
You are going with monism?


Based on my research the characters Jesus, the disciples and Paul are imaginary and fantastic.
What research? What authority have you? So far, all you have are assertions and insults. That makes not a convincing argument.
 
You have never provided any historical evidence for your claims about Jesus and Paul. There is none.

You rely on the opinions of plenty people.

What plenty people believe is not evidence. .

Yes, it’s evidence if the people listed are authoritative scholars.

You very well know that there is no mention, no historical evidence, whatsoever of Jesus of Nazareth and Paul in any non-apologetic writing in the 1st century.

There’s no convincing evidence of a miracle-working god/man called Jesus, certainly. But it is reasonable to assume that there was an original figure – perhaps a charismatic rabbi who attracted sufficient followers to form the basis of a religion. These things don’t just start up in a vacuum. Similarly, with Paul.

There is nothing at all in the supposed Pauline Epistles to show that any of them were written in the 50's and actually written by a real person named Paul.

Well the consensus of modern scholarship (atheist and theist) disagrees.

There is nothing at all even in the entire NT to corroborate a single Pauline Epistle.

I have already listed some of my sources from antiquity which were used to support my argument that Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed.

The only source you’ve provided was Christian Heinrich Arthur Drews, who died in 1939 and specialized in the philosophy of religion. He was also a monist. Interesting, certainly, but hardly representative of modern biblical scholarship.
 
...There’s no convincing evidence of a miracle-working god/man called Jesus, certainly. But it is reasonable to assume that there was an original figure – perhaps a charismatic rabbi who attracted sufficient followers to form the basis of a religion. These things don’t just start up in a vacuum. Similarly, with Paul.

There is also no historical evidence at all for a human Jesus and Paul in the time of Pilate so it is ridiculous to assume they did.

Assumptions are worthless as evidence.

You have not provided a single shred of evidence to support your assumption that your Jesus and Paul existed.

Your assumed Jesus is derived from an invented fiction character of whom there is no historical corroboration.

It is just highly illogical to remove some of the fiction of a character in order to make him a figure of history. Complete nonsense.


Well the consensus of modern scholarship (atheist and theist) disagrees.

All Atheists and theists do not agree on everything.


The only source you’ve provided was Christian Heinrich Arthur Drews, who died in 1939 and specialized in the philosophy of religion. He was also a monist. Interesting, certainly, but hardly representative of modern biblical scholarship.

The arguments that Jesus was a 2nd century fiction character and the Epistles were forgeries were well known for a long time.

See references to Bruno Bauer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bauer

......Starting in 1840, he began a series of works arguing that Jesus was a 2nd-century fusion of Jewish, Greek, and Roman theology.[2]

....... Bauer radicalised that position by suggesting that all Pauline epistles were forgeries, written in the West in antagonism to the Paul of The Acts.
 
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The arguments that Jesus was a 2nd century fiction character and the Epistles were forgeries were well known for a long time.

See references to Bruno Bauer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bauer

Your arguments are not widely held among scholars. And the only references you’ve provided to support them are the monist Christian Heinrich Arthur Drews, who died in 1939, and philosopher and theologian Bruno Bauer who died in 1882. In short, they are dated. Scholarship has moved on a great deal since then. Modern methods of study have been applied to the task of biblical research and the achievement of modern scholarship has been highly productive.
 
There is also no historical evidence at all for a human Jesus and Paul in the time of Pilate so it is ridiculous to assume they did.

Assumptions are worthless as evidence.

You have not provided a single shred of evidence to support your assumption that your Jesus and Paul existed.

Your assumed Jesus is derived from an invented fiction character of whom there is no historical corroboration.

It is just highly illogical to remove some of the fiction of a character in order to make him a figure of history. Complete nonsense.




All Atheists and theists do not agree on everything.




The arguments that Jesus was a 2nd century fiction character and the Epistles were forgeries were well known for a long time.

See references to Bruno Bauer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bauer
Bauer operated on the basis of faith, not evidence. Much as you do.
 
Your arguments are not widely held among scholars. And the only references you’ve provided to support them are the monist Christian Heinrich Arthur Drews, who died in 1939, and philosopher and theologian Bruno Bauer who died in 1882. In short, they are dated. Scholarship has moved on a great deal since then. Modern methods of study have been applied to the task of biblical research and the achievement of modern scholarship has been highly productive.

Your post doesn't make any sense. You put forward the absurd notion that once a person has died their arguments are no longer valid.

You still cannot present a shred of historical evidence from any of your modern methods of study to show that Jesus, the disciples and Paul actually existed.

Please, identify any Scholar [dead or alive] who has presented independent corroborative historical evidence for Jesus, the disciples and Paul?

You will never ever do so because there has never been any in the past or in the present.
 
Well, your claim is false that is why it would never ever work for you.

So you say!

You seem to be genuinely ignorant of arguments made against the historicity of Jesus and Paul.

That doesn't answer the question.

Here is one reference to historian Arthur Drews who argued against the historicity of Jesus, that Paul's conversion is a forgery and that the Epistles were written in the middle of the 2nd century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Drews

Based on my research the characters Jesus, the disciples and Paul are imaginary and fantastic.

There you go, see? It wasn't that hard, was it?

Its only taken, what, seven and a half months to get you to supply a source other than your own personal belief and opinion!
 
The claim, "Jesus, Paul, nor the apostles ever existed" is not evidence based. Unless you have some clearly authentic document from about 1AD to the effect of, "I made the whole jesus story up for reasons!" signed bob the prankster of Judea.

Otherwise, the most you can say is, "In m opinion, the Jesus probably didn't really exist."

As Senex said, the evidence for the existence of Jesus, is actually quite underwhelming, especially considering the impact that the books about him have had. Still, there is literally no evidence that he did not exist. I invite someone to show me that evidence. As noted multiple times, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Evidence for: a lot of questionable and partisan biographies written well after his apparent death. A few mentions here and there in histories written well after his apparent death. Not great evidence at all.

Evidence against: None. I've seen a few quotes from later anti-chrisitian writers that question the alleged miracles. They didn't really seem to question his actual existence in my opinion. I can sort of see how folks might draw that conclusion though. Still, clearly saying, "hey, that Jesus guy didn't even exist." That would be no better than the evidence that he did so at best its a draw.

Anyrate, DeJudge's problem isn't the belief that Jesus didn't exist or his belief that not even Paul nor the apostles existed. The problem is his certainty. Its every bit as faith based as the christians who are just as certain that Jesus did exist. At least I understand why they are certain.
 
The claim, "Jesus, Paul, nor the apostles ever existed" is not evidence based. Unless you have some clearly authentic document from about 1AD to the effect of, "I made the whole jesus story up for reasons!" signed bob the prankster of Judea.

What absurd nonsense!!! You expect fraudsters to admit that they are lying or making stuff up.
Otherwise, the most you can say is, "In m opinion, the Jesus probably didn't really exist."

I am arguing that NT Jesus did not exist!! NT Jesus was described as a water walking, transfiguring, resurrecting son of a Ghost and God Creator.

Such a character never ever existed.

As Senex said, the evidence for the existence of Jesus, is actually quite underwhelming, especially considering the impact that the books about him have had. Still, there is literally no evidence that he did not exist. I invite someone to show me that evidence. As noted multiple times, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

If absence of evidence is not evidence of absence then why do atheists argue that the Christian God does not exist?

Please, you don't even know what you are talking about!!!

Absence of evidence for Jesus, the disciples and Paul allow me to argue that they did not ever exist.

Anyrate, DeJudge's problem isn't the belief that Jesus didn't exist or his belief that not even Paul nor the apostles existed. The problem is his certainty. Its every bit as faith based as the christians who are just as certain that Jesus did exist. At least I understand why they are certain.

You don't the difference between belief and an argument based on existing evidence.

Jesus was described by multiple writers of antiquity as a water walking, transfiguring, resurrecting son of a Ghost and God Creator. Such a character never ever existed and had no chosen disciples. In addition, the character called Paul was entirely fabricated as a convert in order to claim to be a witness to the resurrected Jesus and his fictitious disciples.

I have no reasonable doubt that Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed.
 
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Is there anyone here arguing that Jesus the son of god and performed various miracles existed? I don't think so, its a boring argument for a bunch of atheists and skeptics.

The only interesting question is whether that character was based on one or more real people. The answer to that can only be probably not, probably yes, or IDK. Except for that last post, you seem to be arguing that the character of Jesus described in the Bible wasn't even based on one or more real people and was just a work of fiction.

There isn't actually anything particularly extraordinary about Paul as far as I know. At his most supernatural, he was a guy that saw a vision. That happens all the time, we mostly just call those delusions. So, what evidence do you have that Paul did not exist?

So, are you just saying that the miracle working Jesus did not exist as described in the bible regardless of whether that character was based on one or more real people? Or are you arguing that the miracle working Jesus didn't exist as described in the bible and was just a work of fiction?
 
Is there anyone here arguing that Jesus the son of god and performed various miracles existed? I don't think so, its a boring argument for a bunch of atheists and skeptics.

I am arguing that the character called Jesus of Nazareth never ever existed. In other words, NT Jesus did nothing all, he had no mother, no disciples, did not live at all in the time of Pilate.

NT Jesus is no different to the myth characters found in Jewish, Greek and Roman mythology.
The only interesting question is whether that character was based on one or more real people. The answer to that can only be probably not, probably yes, or IDK. Except for that last post, you seem to be arguing that the character of Jesus described in the Bible wasn't even based on one or more real people and was just a work of fiction.

You cannot answer any of those questions.



There isn't actually anything particularly extraordinary about Paul as far as I know. At his most supernatural, he was a guy that saw a vision. That happens all the time, we mostly just call those delusions. So, what evidence do you have that Paul did not exist?

Things which do not exist have no evidence of existence. I can only argue that Paul existed when there is evidence and there is none.

And in addition, the Pauline writings are essentially a pack of lies with regards to Jesus and the apostles.

So, are you just saying that the miracle working Jesus did not exist as described in the bible regardless of whether that character was based on one or more real people? Or are you arguing that the miracle working Jesus didn't exist as described in the bible and was just a work of fiction?

Again, I am arguing NT Jesus never ever existed at all. The NT is complete fction wth regards to Jesus the disciples and Paul. They were all fabricated sometime in the 2nd century.
 
Evidence against: None. I've seen a few quotes from later anti-chrisitian writers that question the alleged miracles. They didn't really seem to question his actual existence in my opinion. I can sort of see how folks might draw that conclusion though. Still, clearly saying, "hey, that Jesus guy didn't even exist." That would be no better than the evidence that he did so at best its a draw.

.



The claimed miracles are crucial here.

For almost 2000 years almost everyone on the planet actually believed that miracles really happened. And in particular, almost everyone believed that Jesus had performed all the miracles described in the bible.

It's only really in the last 100 years or so that educated people have understood why modern science has shown that such miracles are probably an impossibility, and that none of those Jesus stories in the bible could have actually happened.

So is that evidence against the reality of Jesus? Well, in a way it is. And it's fairly direct way too. It's very clear evidence that the Jesus stories were invented ... people made them up.

Now, you could still claim that maybe only the miracles themselves were the invention and that perhaps there was still a preacher named Jesus who was the basis of those biblical stories. But you could always make that claim about absolutely every invented fictional story every told ... e.g., maybe Superman was a real person ... maybe every figure from mythology and fiction was actually real, but we just need to cross out all the impossible supernatural bits.

OK, point is - that is not a credible argument or defence to say "lets just cross out all the parts that we have now found to be untrue". It might be a valid argument to do that if it was just one or two wild untrue claims. But in the case of Jesus virtually every account of what he did is centred around a miracle or a miraculous prophetic insight ... and that reduces the entire thing to being so untrustworthy, in fact so clearly now proven to be false, that there is no credible evidence of Jesus left there at all.

But it gets worse. Because in his book "Gospel Fictions" Randel Helms (and I believe various other authors too), have shown that many of the gospel stories of Jesus, especially in g.Mark and g.Mathew (from which other gospels are thought be just elaborated copies), were in fact taken from various prophecies written down centuries before in the Old Testament. The obvious point being that the OT was clearly being used a source from which to invent Jesus stories. So that is actually direct and clear evidence that gospels stories were being fabricated.

You could make the same untenable defence there again, to say that because only maybe 5, 10, 15 or 20 of the gospel accounts of Jesus could be traced to something in OT prophecy, therefore it's possible that the remainder of the Jesus stories were true! But that's the same fallacy as just described above for the miracles. So again – once it has been shown that the OT was being used for more than just 2 or 3 gospel accounts of Jesus, then the entirety of the biblical writing as whole rapidly begins to lose credibility as anything except likely myth.

So that is really quite direct, and again, apparently undeniable evidence that the Jesus stories were never more than invented religious myths that arose from far more ancient OT religious beliefs about people receiving prophecies from God about God's promise of sending a saviour for the Jewish race.

Also, in the letters of Paul (whoever that author was), the writer there says that he got his brief accounts of Jesus and his belief in Jesus, from what he called “scripture”, which is generally taken to mean the OT, but which also probably meant other influential religious writing of the time such as The Ascent of Isaiah. So in those letters, “Paul” repeatedly insists to his readers exactly what Randle Helms showed in his book Gospel Fictions. Namely that the faithful were getting those beliefs and those believed stories from what had been written long before in “Scripture”.

But despite all that, as I have said here at least 100 times in these HJ threads – I am not saying any of that actually “Proves” Jesus did not exist. Because apart from anything else a literal proof is not possible for any such thing anyway. So all I can say is that whilst he might have existed, the claimed evidence of his existence is actually not credible as genuine evidence at all … there's really no genuine evidence of his existence ever known to anyone at that time … however, we have since discovered (it's taken almost 2000 years!), that there is overwhelming evidence to show that the gospel stories were mythical and probably derived mostly from beliefs in OT “scriptural” prophecies first written hundreds of years before the canonical gospels.
 
I am arguing that the character called Jesus of Nazareth never ever existed. In other words, NT Jesus did nothing all, he had no mother, no disciples, did not live at all in the time of Pilate.
In that case, your certainty is not warranted. If you just stuck to, probably didn't exist, I'd thing you were wrong but not unreasonably so.
NT Jesus is no different to the myth characters found in Jewish, Greek and Roman mythology.


You cannot answer any of those questions.
Sure, the only difference between you and me, is that I know I can't really answer that. All I'll say is that based on the available evidence, Jesus and is disciples were probably real, he just didn't have supernatural powers.
Things which do not exist have no evidence of existence. I can only argue that Paul existed when there is evidence and there is none.

And in addition, the Pauline writings are essentially a pack of lies with regards to Jesus and the apostles.
You really can't know that. They could be lies or delusions or both mixed with some truth. All we can really know is that about half of them were probably written by the same guy. There's not much reason to think they weren't written by a guy named Paul.
Again, I am arguing NT Jesus never ever existed at all. The NT is complete fction wth regards to Jesus the disciples and Paul. They were all fabricated sometime in the 2nd century.

You can not know that with certainty. We can know with a high degree of certainty that the supernatural elements did not happen. Those parts might be lies or written by folks that actually believed they happened. The non-super natural bits, we can't really know. Lots of biographies have outright lies and most have bits of exaggeration, that doesn't mean the subjects didn't exist. It just means you can't really know if George Washington chopped down a cherry tree or not.
 
The claim, "Jesus, Paul, nor the apostles ever existed" is not evidence based. Unless you have some clearly authentic document from about 1AD to the effect of, "I made the whole jesus story up for reasons!" signed bob the prankster of Judea.

But that's totally backwards isn't it ?
The onus of proof is on the positive claimant, not the other way 'round -
those who claim Jesus existed must produce evidence to convince people,
we don't just believe everything without evidence.

Otherwise -
according to your argument that means alien beings are visiting earth now - because there is no clear authentic evidence they are not.

According to that argument that means faeries exist - because there are many stories about them but no clear authentic evidence they don't exist.

Obviously a silly argument.


Evidence against: None. I've seen a few quotes from later anti-chrisitian writers that question the alleged miracles. They didn't really seem to question his actual existence in my opinion. I can sort of see how folks might draw that conclusion though. Still, clearly saying, "hey, that Jesus guy didn't even exist." That would be no better than the evidence that he did so at best its a draw.

So what ?
Those ancient gullible people believed in all sorts of stories - including many about gods and god-men and angels and demons and impossible miracles. But no-one ever claimed they didn't exist.

Everyone believed in Adam and Eve, and Noah, and Samson and the Tower of Babel etc. - no-one claimed they didn't exist. So according to your argument that means all those bible characters and stories really existed.

So too Isis and Osiris, Zeus and Hecate and friends, Dionysus, Apollo etc. According to your argument that means they all existed.

Obviously a worthless argument.

Kapyong
 
In that case, your certainty is not warranted. If you just stuck to, probably didn't exist, I'd thing you were wrong but not unreasonably so.

What you say is really irrelevant because you have no idea whether or not Jesus existed.

Nothing at all you say can contradict my argument that Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed.

Sure, the only difference between you and me, is that I know I can't really answer that. All I'll say is that based on the available evidence, Jesus and is disciples were probably real, he just didn't have supernatural powers.
You really can't know that. They could be lies or delusions or both mixed with some truth. All we can really know is that about half of them were probably written by the same guy. There's not much reason to think they weren't written by a guy named Paul.

You have zero historical evidence, nil, none to support your claim Jesus was probably real and absolutely no historical evidence for the character called Paul.

Your baseless assumptions about Jesus and Paul are really worthless.

You can not know that with certainty. We can know with a high degree of certainty that the supernatural elements did not happen. Those parts might be lies or written by folks that actually believed they happened. The non-super natural bits, we can't really know. Lots of biographies have outright lies and most have bits of exaggeration, that doesn't mean the subjects didn't exist. It just means you can't really know if George Washington chopped down a cherry tree or not.

Based on your absurdity, Jesus probably existed because you don't know if he he cursed a tree.

You don't know what the fiction, forgeries and false attribution in the NT means.

Based on the existing evidence I have no reasonable doubt that Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed.

Jesus, the disciples and Paul are fabricated characters like the God of the Jews, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, the angel Gabriel, Satan, Enoch, Noah, Romulus, Remus and Jupiter.
 
:w2:

Wow, what round is this? 14? I thought we beat this thing to death a few years ago.

Ya'll have more stamina than I. :p
 
Your post doesn't make any sense. You put forward the absurd notion that once a person has died their arguments are no longer valid.

You still cannot present a shred of historical evidence from any of your modern methods of study to show that Jesus, the disciples and Paul actually existed.

Please, identify any Scholar [dead or alive] who has presented independent corroborative historical evidence for Jesus, the disciples and Paul?

You will never ever do so because there has never been any in the past or in the present.

This is simply not true.

Atheist biblical scholar Dr Bart Ehrman, in a 2011 review of modern scholarship, wrote of Jesus: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".

Eminent biblical scholar Dr James D. G. Dunn calls the theories of Jesus' non-existence "a thoroughly dead thesis".

Notable classicist Dr Michael Grant wrote in 1977, "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary".

There are very many serious scholars (atheist and theist alike) that say the same. You're flogging a dead horse dejudge.
 
But that's totally backwards isn't it ?
The onus of proof is on the positive claimant, not the other way 'round -
those who claim Jesus existed must produce evidence to convince people,
we don't just believe everything without evidence.

Otherwise -
according to your argument that means alien beings are visiting earth now - because there is no clear authentic evidence they are not.

According to that argument that means faeries exist - because there are many stories about them but no clear authentic evidence they don't exist.

Obviously a silly argument.




So what ?
Those ancient gullible people believed in all sorts of stories - including many about gods and god-men and angels and demons and impossible miracles. But no-one ever claimed they didn't exist.

Everyone believed in Adam and Eve, and Noah, and Samson and the Tower of Babel etc. - no-one claimed they didn't exist. So according to your argument that means all those bible characters and stories really existed.

So too Isis and Osiris, Zeus and Hecate and friends, Dionysus, Apollo etc. According to your argument that means they all existed.

Obviously a worthless argument.

Kapyong


Heres the problem with that

We aren't having a debate over something that happened a week from last Tuesday; we are dealing with something that happened - IF it happened - over 2000 years ago. It gets very hard to make definite determinations because there is a lack of contemporaneous, comprehensive and coherent documentation.

On the question of HJ there are, IMO, three most likely conclusions that can be reached, and before I state them as I see them, I need to make it clear that I do not intend for any of them to speak to any of the supernatural or micraculous things attributed to Jesus - I approach this from a purely secular viewpoint as an atheist....

1. There was no historical person called Jesus Christ, and everything we find written about him was fabricated; completely made up from whole cloth, and

2. There was no historical person called Jesus Christ, but the stories about him may have been based on the aspects of one or more peripatetic preachers who were known to have existed at the time, and

3. There was an actual historical person called Jesus Christ, and, being mindful of my clarification above, the Bible and associated writings are an accurate description of his life and times.

IMO, it is impossible to know if any of these three possibilities is the correct one - we simply do not have enough information to make an meaningful determination. I personally tend towards number 2, as is it the option that is the least extraordinary, that asks the least number of questions, and that fits in with what we already do know about those times.
 
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