• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Historical Jesus

Status
Not open for further replies.
So you claim. Got any evidence, or shall this be added to your list of unevidenced rants?

There are many many many fallacies in Ehrman's argument for an HJ. You will have to read the book yourself.

Ehrman claims Jesus must have existed because the supposed Paul claimed he met his brother!!! How absurd and illogical can he be!!

Well, Paul claimed he was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead so Jesus must have resurrected!
 
Last edited:
It is completely illogical to assume letters are authentic simply because they appear to be from the same author

Except that there is little doubt in modern NT scholarship that the “authentic” epistles are by the same author for reasons presented previously.

especially when there is no corroborative historical evidence that any of the letters were written before c 70 CE.

There is virtually universal consensus in modern NT scholarship that the “authentic” epistles were written in the 50’s. Why would you doubt it?

Once it is admitted the Epistles are products of multiple unknown authors and unknown time of composition then it cannot be determined which letters are authentic.

See above.

The quantity of people who believe anything is not evidence at all.

Seriously! First you claim that biblical scholars are all “lifelong Christian believers” who cannot be “impartial”. So, when I present some non-Christian biblical scholars you claim that “the quantity of people who believe anything is not evidence at all”. Exercising historical-critical methodology is what true scholarship is all about, NOT the personal belief system of the scholar.

There is no historical evidence at all that any letter to any church or Jesus cult was written by anyone before c 70 CE in or out the NT.

You are coming across as a fanatic. What do you hope to prove by arguing contrary to majority scholarship when you don’t provide any evidence to support your views?
 
There are many many many fallacies in Ehrman's argument for an HJ. You will have to read the book yourself.

Ehrman claims Jesus must have existed because the supposed Paul claimed he met his brother!!! How absurd and illogical can he be!!

Well, Paul claimed he was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead so Jesus must have resurrected!
The only reason you have for such an egregious misrepresentation of Ehrman's position is your religious fervour.
 
Except that there is little doubt in modern NT scholarship that the “authentic” epistles are by the same author for reasons presented previously.

You are really wasting time with your plenty people story.

What nonsense!!! The belief of plenty people is not evidence of anything.


There is virtually universal consensus in modern NT scholarship that the “authentic” epistles were written in the 50’s. Why would you doubt it?

You merely repeat the same nonsense that whatever plenty believe must be true when you know that there is no historical corroboration at all in the entire universe to show when any NT Epistle was written.


Seriously! First you claim that biblical scholars are all “lifelong Christian believers” who cannot be “impartial”. So, when I present some non-Christian biblical scholars you claim that “the quantity of people who believe anything is not evidence at all”. Exercising historical-critical methodology is what true scholarship is all about, NOT the personal belief system of the scholar.

Your story is known fiction. I never ever stated anywhere at any time that biblical scholars are all “lifelong Christian believers” who cannot be “impartial”.


You are coming across as a fanatic. What do you hope to prove by arguing contrary to majority scholarship when you don’t provide any evidence to support your views?

You are a fiction writer. You cannot and never will present any historical evidence for your claims about Paul and the Epistles.

I have presented evidence for my position that NT Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed at all. They are all products of fiction fabricated no earlier than the 2nd century.

It is clearly stated that NT Jesus was a water walking, transfiguring, resurrecting son of a Ghost so he could not have had and chosen any disciples and the character called Paul could not have met the disciples or heard from the resurrected Ghost called Jesus.

The entire NT is just a pack of lies, total fiction, with respect to Jesus, the disciples and Paul.
 
Last edited:
What nonsense!!! The belief of plenty people is not evidence of anything.
For non-experts, the beliefs of experts are evidence.

I have presented evidence for my position that NT Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed at all. They are all products of fiction fabricated no earlier than the 2nd century.
You have not given this evidence. You've talked about paleography but not even answered direct questions about either the details of the paleographic analysis or whether you know of any other non-paleographic evidence.

It is clearly stated that NT Jesus was a water walking, transfiguring, resurrecting son of a Ghost so he could not have had and chosen any disciples and the character called Paul could not have met the disciples
The stuff before the highlighted word does not establish the stuff after it. You have supplied no reason why a real-world guy with disciples couldn't have later had some made-up miracles added to his story.
 
For non-experts, the beliefs of experts are evidence.

Well, those non-experts don't know what evidence is. Your non-experts don't know that experts do not agree on everything.

Your non-experts should just look in a dictionary to find out the difference between evidence and belief.

You have not given this evidence. You've talked about paleography but not even answered direct questions about either the details of the paleographic analysis or whether you know of any other non-paleographic evidence.

You write fiction. I have made references to multiple sources attributed to writers from the 1st and and 2nd century who did not mention Jesus, the disciples and/or Paul.

This is a partial list : Philo, Josephus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Suetonius and Tacitus, Aristides, Justin Martyr and Celsus.

The stuff before the highlighted word does not establish the stuff after it. You have supplied no reason why a real-world guy with disciples couldn't have later had some made-up miracles added to his story.

You cannot and never will be able to establish that a real guy existed and miracles were added to the story. You and your Non-experts have no evidence at all to support your imagination.

NT Jesus was a water-walking, transfiguring, resurrecting son of a Ghost as is directly stated. The character never ever had any disciples and Saul/Paul could not have met any or stayed with them or heard from the resurrected ghost called Jesus.

The NT is total fiction with respect to Jesus, the disciples, Paul - total fiction.
 
Except that there is little doubt in modern NT scholarship that the “authentic” epistles are by the same author for reasons presented previously.

You are really wasting time with your plenty people story.

What nonsense!!! The belief of plenty people is not evidence of anything.
Tassman refers to scholarly consensus. A thing of which you are apparently unaware. That's OK. The religious like you are often unaware of scholarly consensus. You are not the first to make this error.


There is virtually universal consensus in modern NT scholarship that the “authentic” epistles were written in the 50’s. Why would you doubt it?

You merely repeat the same nonsense that whatever plenty believe must be true when you know that there is no historical corroboration at all in the entire universe to show when any NT Epistle was written.
False claim. Care to provide evidence for your assertion? Of course not.


Seriously! First you claim that biblical scholars are all “lifelong Christian believers” who cannot be “impartial”. So, when I present some non-Christian biblical scholars you claim that “the quantity of people who believe anything is not evidence at all”. Exercising historical-critical methodology is what true scholarship is all about, NOT the personal belief system of the scholar.

Your story is known fiction. I never ever stated anywhere at any time that biblical scholars are all “lifelong Christian believers” who cannot be “impartial”.
Must I quote you? Or are you willing to roll that claim back? No harm no foul.


You are coming across as a fanatic. What do you hope to prove by arguing contrary to majority scholarship when you don’t provide any evidence to support your views?

You are a fiction writer. You cannot and never will present any historical evidence for your claims about Paul and the Epistles.
We could do so but your religious beliefs render such an effort fruitless.

I have presented evidence for my position that NT Jesus, the disciples and Paul never ever existed at all. They are all products of fiction fabricated no earlier than the 2nd century.
Nope. You presented no evidence at all, you merely presented your particular brand of faith.

It is clearly stated that NT Jesus was a water walking, transfiguring, resurrecting son of a Ghost so he could not have had and chosen any disciples
Non sequitur. The claimed "jebus" does not have to have done so, he merely needs to have been reputed to do so. That you cannot work that out is your problem not anyone else's.

and the character called Paul could not have met the disciples or heard from the resurrected Ghost called Jesus.
So somehow, you know for a fact that it is impossible for anyone ever to have a religious delusion, despite the plethora of living people who actually have religious delusions right now? This is the kind of nonsense that discredits your claims.

The entire NT is just a pack of lies, total fiction, with respect to Jesus, the disciples and Paul.
Assertion without any evidence. No, I prefer facts with demonstrable evidence TYVM.
 
I have made references to multiple sources attributed to writers from the 1st and and 2nd century who did not mention Jesus, the disciples and/or Paul.
That means nothing without some reason to think they would have mentioned it. Lots of people write on one subject but not another.

You cannot and never will be able to establish that a real guy existed and miracles were added to the story.
That's why I don't claim to.

The NT is total fiction with respect to Jesus, the disciples, Paul - total fiction.
Prove the highlighted words: not just parts of the story, but all of the entire story.
 
dejudge said:
I have made references to multiple sources attributed to writers from the 1st and and 2nd century who did not mention Jesus, the disciples and/or Paul.

That means nothing without some reason to think they would have mentioned it. Lots of people write on one subject but not another.

Well, this is a partial list of characters mentioned in writings attributed to Josephus:\

1. John the Baptist.
2. Herod the Great.
3. Pilate.
4. Aretas.
5. Pharisees.
6. Sadducees.
7. The Sanhedrin.
8. Caiaphas the high priest
9. Claudius.
10. Agrippa.
11. Bernice.
12. Salome.

You will never ever find the total fiction characters called Jesus, Son of the Ghost, the disciples and Paul in any writings from early well-known writers of antiquity.


dejudge said:
The NT is total fiction with respect to Jesus, the disciples, Paul - total fiction.
Prove the highlighted words: not just parts of the story, but all of the entire story.

The writings of the Jesus cult authors is evidence that their Jesus was total fiction who was never ever born.

Aristides Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel...

Origen "Against Celsus
....let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost..

Tertullian On the Flesh of Christ.

In order, therefore, that He who was already the Son of God— of God the Father's seed, that is to say, the Spirit — might also be the Son of man, He only wanted to assume flesh, of the flesh of man without the seed of a man; for the seed of a man was unnecessary for One who had the seed of God.

You seem not to know that Ghosts and Gods are total fiction characters. Sorry, I forgot your are a non-expert.
 
Last edited:
Humans who bowl 300 on their first try, get every golf hole in 1 or 2 on their first try, and live without an anus are fictional too, but North Korea has still had real dictators for the last few decades.
 
Humans who bowl 300 on their first try, get every golf hole in 1 or 2 on their first try, and live without an anus are fictional too, but North Korea has still had real dictators for the last few decades.

You may be a bit stressed out.
 
The “authentic” letters are considered to be by the same author because of the similarity of literary structure and style such as the use of a common vocabulary, idioms, common phrases and sentence structure. The reason they are attributed to Paul is that there is no good reason to think they weren’t by Paul. Who else would bother writing them?

Conversely, the exclusion of the pseudograph letters centers on differences in style and vocabulary and theological development.


No. Absolutely not. You cannot claim any group of similar letters are truly by Paul when you have absolutely zero evidence to show that the group is any more likely to be by Paul than any of the other "fake" letters ... how did you decide that the first 6 or 7 are more likely to be "Paul"?

You have no way to tell which ones are by Paul, or indeed whether any of them are by "Paul".



Some notable biblical scholars are “very partial lifelong believers” certainly. But many are not, e.g. Zeba Crook, James Crossly, Bart Ehrman, Paula Fredriksen, Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan and Gerd Ludemann etc. Exercising historical-critical methodology is what true scholarship is all about, NOT one’s personal belief system. The fundamental rule is that the scholar must be obedient to the texts and allow them to determine their interpretation.


Absolutely definitely not! Ehrman's academic background is drowning in religion. And he himself says that when he began studying with a view to lecturing in biblical studies he was a devout evangelist who spent his young life trying to convert people to the faith. Crossan's background is even more extreme in it's immersion in religious belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan

Crossan was born on February 17, 1934,[5] in Nenagh, County Tipperary, Ireland. Though his father was a banker, Crossan was steeped in the rural Irish life, which he experienced through frequent visits to the home of his paternal grandparents. Upon graduation from St Eunan's College, a boarding high school, in 1950, Crossan joined the Servites, a Catholic religious order, and moved to the United States. He was trained at Stonebridge Seminary, Lake Bluff, Illinois, then ordained a priest in 1957. Crossan returned to Ireland, where he earned his Doctor of Divinity degree in 1959 at St Patrick's College, Maynooth, the Irish national seminary. He then completed two more years of study in biblical languages at the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome. In 1965 Crossan began two additional years of study (in archaeology) at the Ecole Biblique in Jordanian East Jerusalem. During this time, he travelled through several countries in the region, escaping just days before the outbreak of the Six-Day War of 1967.[6]

After a year at St. Mary of the Lake Seminary in Mundelein, Illinois, and a year at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, Crossan chose to resign his priesthood. In the fall of 1969 he joined the faculty of DePaul University, where he taught undergraduates comparative religion for 26 years until retiring in 1995. With Robert W. Funk, Crossan served as co-chair of the Jesus Seminar, a group of academics studying the historical Jesus, for its first decade. Crossan also served as president of the Chicago Society of Biblical Research in 1978–1979, and as president of the Society of Biblical Literature in 2012.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Bart Denton Ehrman*(/bɑːrt*ˈɜːrmən/; born October 5, 1955) is an American*New Testament scholar*focusing on*textual criticism*of the*New Testament, the*historical Jesus, the*origins and development of early Christianity. He has written and edited 30 books, including three college textbooks. He has also authored six*New York Times*bestsellers. He is currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of*Religious Studies*at the*University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Early life[edit]

Ehrman grew up in*Lawrence, Kansas, and attended*Lawrence High School, where he was on the state champion debate team in 1973. He began studying the*Bible,*Biblical theology*and*Biblical languages*at*Moody Bible Institute,[1]*where he earned the school's three-year diploma in 1976.[2]

*He is a 1978 graduate of*Wheaton College*in Illinois, where he received his bachelor's degree. He received his*Ph.D.*(in 1985) and*M.Div.*from*Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied*textual criticism*of the Bible,*development of the New Testament canon*and*New Testament apocrypha*under*Bruce Metzger. Both baccalaureate and doctorate were conferred*magna cum laude.[3]

Career[edit]
In*Misquoting Jesus*Ehrman tells how he was a*born-again,*fundamentalist Christian*as a teenager.[1][4]*He recounts being certain in his youthful enthusiasm that*God had inspired*the*wording of the Bible*and protected its texts from*all error.[1][4]*His desire to understand the original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages, particularly*Koine Greek, and to*textual criticism. During his graduate studies, however, he became convinced that there are*contradictions and discrepancies in the biblical manuscripts*that could not be harmonized or reconciled:[1]




There's zero need to go through the others ... you can quote the academic and religious background of the others if you want … but we have been through all the most prominent Bible Scholars many times in these threads. They are about as far from impartial observers as it's possible to get.
 
When I've heard Ehrman describe his current beliefs, he's described himself as an Agnostic. But it would not matter if he now says that he is a Atheist. The point is that for almost all of his near 40 years teaching religious studies, he was a committed Christian believer. And all of his education and his entire career has been devoted entirely to studies in religious belief. That's about as far as anyone can get from having an impartial educational objective background. And that's also true for virtually all of the many tens of thousands of Biblical studies teachers around the world (but mainly in the USA), the vast majority of whom are still Christian believers.

One of the very few exceptions who lost his faith entirely shortly after becoming employed in his first few years as a Biblical Studies lecturer, is Hector Avalos. Although even in his case, as he himself says, he was previously from his young teenage years a highly devout street evangelist who stood on street corners preaching the faith and trying to convert anyone end everyone that he met. In other words he was very committed indeed to his Christian faith in God, Jesus and the Bible. But he lost his faith during the time he was studying the bible more intensively and researching the actual evidence prior to qualifying academically and being employed in his first role as a Biblical studies teacher in the USA.

You can find various public lectures and debates with Hector Avalos on YouTube, where he makes clear that the evidence for Jesus is extremely weak to put it mildly. Whether he actually believes Jesus was most likely mythical, I don't know. But the point is that he admits that a study of the claimed evidence changed his mind quite drastically about how reliable any of it actually is.

In one of those YouTube lectures he also explained that in meetings of the most prestigious groups of Biblical Studies professors in the USA, he was surprised to find that the meetings actually began with everyone sitting around with their eyes closed and their hands clasped together praying! And the point he was making is that, that is not normal behaviour in any other branch of university academia.

Point is (in case you are missing it) – this is by no means an impartial group of people. And as committed Christian believers, the vast majority are about as far from being impartial as it's possible to be.

And on the letters of Paul, once again – it might be a different matter if none of the letters had been discovered to be almost certainly fakes (or at any rate agreed to be fakes by all Biblical Scholars and afaik by all educated senior members of the Christian church). In that case, if there were no agreed fakes, then there might be no particular reason to doubt that the letters were indeed originally written by the named author “Paul” … But that is not the case! We do not have all 13 letters with no fakes! We have instead 13 letters about half of which are universally agreed to be fakes …

… as soon as you have a situation like that, then it calls into very serious doubt the authenticity of all the letters.

But even more than that, as I have explained at least twice now – it means that there is absolutely no way to claim that 6 or 7 of the letters were genuinely written by Paul. Or even to claim that those 6 or 7 were probably from Paul himself. Because we cannot tell whether those 6 or 7 (the “authentic letters”) are more likely to be genuine than any of the other 6 or 7! There is simply no way of having any idea at all which (if any) were the ones truly written by Paul. Ask yourself "Q - what is the evidence showing those 6 or 7 were from Paul whilst the others were not from Paul"? And if you think you do have the evidence to show which ones were most probably by Paul, then do tell us what that evidence is??

And in threads about the historicity or otherwise of Jesus, that means the content of those Pauline letters cannot be used to say anything reliable at all about what anyone might have known about Jesus.
 
When I've heard Ehrman describe his current beliefs, he's described himself as an Agnostic. But it would not matter if he now says that he is a Atheist. The point is that for almost all of his near 40 years teaching religious studies, he was a committed Christian believer. And all of his education and his entire career has been devoted entirely to studies in religious belief. That's about as far as anyone can get from having an impartial educational objective background.

Yup.
Dr Ehrman has committed almost his whole life to Jesus - his faith, his books, his career, his reputation, his income - all depend on his belief in Jesus.

It beggars belief how anyone can consider him impartial.

Nowadays he calls himself atheist-agnostic or an agnostic-atheist.

Believers now claim that makes him impartial :
"even ATHEIST Dr Ehrman believes in Jesus".
"we can trust what Dr Ehrman says about Jesus, he's an atheist".


Of course, the opposite is claimed about atheists who they disagree with :
"we canNOT trust Dr Carrier - he's just an atheist".

Ridiculous.
 
No. Absolutely not. You cannot claim any group of similar letters are truly by Paul when you have absolutely zero evidence to show that the group is any more likely to be by Paul than any of the other "fake" letters ... how did you decide that the first 6 or 7 are more likely to be "Paul"?

I’m not claiming anything other than the fact that the majority of biblical scholars have grouped together seven “Pauline” epistles as being by the same author on the basis of such qualities as the similarity of literary structure and style and the use of a common vocabulary, idioms, common phrases and sentence structure.

You have no way to tell which ones are by Paul, or indeed whether any of them are by "Paul".

Well there IS a way to tell that seven are by the same author (see above). And whether or not they are by Paul, there is no good reason to think they are not by him.

Absolutely definitely not! Ehrman's academic background is drowning in religion. And he himself says that when he began studying with a view to lecturing in biblical studies he was a devout evangelist who spent his young life trying to convert people to the faith. Crossan's background is even more extreme in it's immersion in religious belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan

Crossan was born on February 17, 1934,[5] in Nenagh, County Tipperary, Ireland. Though his father was a banker, Crossan was steeped in the rural Irish life, which he experienced through frequent visits to the home of his paternal grandparents. Upon graduation from St Eunan's College, a boarding high school, in 1950, Crossan joined the Servites, a Catholic religious order, and moved to the United States. He was trained at Stonebridge Seminary, Lake Bluff, Illinois, then ordained a priest in 1957. Crossan returned to Ireland, where he earned his Doctor of Divinity degree in 1959 at St Patrick's College, Maynooth, the Irish national seminary. He then completed two more years of study in biblical languages at the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome. In 1965 Crossan began two additional years of study (in archaeology) at the Ecole Biblique in Jordanian East Jerusalem. During this time, he travelled through several countries in the region, escaping just days before the outbreak of the Six-Day War of 1967.[6]

After a year at St. Mary of the Lake Seminary in Mundelein, Illinois, and a year at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, Crossan chose to resign his priesthood. In the fall of 1969 he joined the faculty of DePaul University, where he taught undergraduates comparative religion for 26 years until retiring in 1995. With Robert W. Funk, Crossan served as co-chair of the Jesus Seminar, a group of academics studying the historical Jesus, for its first decade. Crossan also served as president of the Chicago Society of Biblical Research in 1978–1979, and as president of the Society of Biblical Literature in 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Bart Denton Ehrman*(/bɑːrt*ˈɜːrmən/; born October 5, 1955) is an American*New Testament scholar*focusing on*textual criticism*of the*New Testament, the*historical Jesus, the*origins and development of early Christianity. He has written and edited 30 books, including three college textbooks. He has also authored six*New York Times*bestsellers. He is currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of*Religious Studies*at the*University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Early life[edit]

Ehrman grew up in*Lawrence, Kansas, and attended*Lawrence High School, where he was on the state champion debate team in 1973. He began studying the*Bible,*Biblical theology*and*Biblical languages*at*Moody Bible Institute,[1]*where he earned the school's three-year diploma in 1976.[2]

*He is a 1978 graduate of*Wheaton College*in Illinois, where he received his bachelor's degree. He received his*Ph.D.*(in 1985) and*M.Div.*from*Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied*textual criticism*of the Bible,*development of the New Testament canon*and*New Testament apocrypha*under*Bruce Metzger. Both baccalaureate and doctorate were conferred*magna cum laude.[3]

Career[edit]
In*Misquoting Jesus*Ehrman tells how he was a*born-again,*fundamentalist Christian*as a teenager.[1][4]*He recounts being certain in his youthful enthusiasm that*God had inspired*the*wording of the Bible*and protected its texts from*all error.[1][4]*His desire to understand the original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages, particularly*Koine Greek, and to*textual criticism. During his graduate studies, however, he became convinced that there are*contradictions and discrepancies in the biblical manuscripts*that could not be harmonized or reconciled:[1]


There's zero need to go through the others ... you can quote the academic and religious background of the others if you want … but we have been through all the most prominent Bible Scholars many times in these threads. They are about as far from impartial observers as it's possible to get.

Then I guess that we will have to rely on an “impartial observer” like you seeing as all of the above are “drowning in religion". :rolleyes:
 
I’m not claiming anything other than the fact that the majority of biblical scholars have grouped together seven “Pauline” epistles as being by the same author on the basis of such qualities as the similarity of literary structure and style and the use of a common vocabulary, idioms, common phrases and sentence structure.

You are merely repeating chinese whispers. You don't know how much Biblical Scholars there are in the world.

You have no facts. It is impossible to determine that the supposed Paul only wrote seven Epistles because plenty people believe so.

There is simple no historical evidence for Paul the fabricated convert so Acts of the Apostles, known useless fiction, is used to historicise Paul and that he wrote Epistles since the 50's.
 
Well there IS a way to tell that seven are by the same author (see above). And whether or not they are by Paul, there is no good reason to think they are not by him.


No! (yet again!). All that you can tell about those 6 or 7 letters is that the similarity in style might mean that they are all by the same author. They "might" be ... and that's very different from saying that they "are" by one author.

And that gets your argument (and that of biblical scholars) not one angstrom closer to truthfully claiming that they were written around 50 to 60 AD by "Paul"!

All you can say is that (a) any of the 13 letters might have been written by Paul, but (b) we have no evidence to say which, if any, are authentic.

And that's apart from the fact that the letters we are talking about are not original anyway. They are apparently (according to everyone involved) anonymously written copies produced around 200 AD. So the other thing we are forced to conclude from that, is that any actual originals written around 50 to 60 AD may have been very different from what was produced 150 years later as anonymous "copies".

If biblical scholars, theologians, Popes and Archbishops or anyone here (or anywhere else) is going to get anywhere close to any truth about whether Jesus actually existed or whether anyone named “Paul” wrote what is found in any later copies of letters, then they have start being honest and accurate about what anyone can genuinely tell from a bunch of later copied letters (or from any of the much later gospel copying).
 
No! . All that you can tell about those 6 or 7 letters is that the similarity in style might mean that they are all by the same author. They "might" be ... and that's very different from saying that they "are" by one author.

OK. The seven letters are in all probability by the same author because of the similarity of literary structure and style and the use of a common vocabulary, idioms, common phrases and sentence structure etc – as previously argued.

And that gets your argument (and that of biblical scholars) not one angstrom closer to truthfully claiming that they were written around 50 to 60 AD by "Paul"!

I can only go by what scholars, who have greater expertise in higher criticism than I tell me. Who do you go by?

All you can say is that (a) any of the 13 letters might have been written by Paul, but (b) we have no evidence to say which, if any, are authentic.

Well we do have evidence to say which of the 13 letters are authentic. It’s just that for reasons best known to yourself you choose not to accept it.

And that's apart from the fact that the letters we are talking about are not original anyway.

Indeed. Which is why they are assessed by scholars using the historical-critical method. This is true of ALL ancient documents.
 
Ehrman claims Jesus must have existed because the supposed Paul claimed he met his brother!!! How absurd and illogical can he be!!

Have you actually read any of Ehrman's books? I ask because your statement gives the impression that you've read straw-man versions of what others claim he says,but are unfamiliar with the complexities of what he's actually argued.

I've read several of his books written at the layman's level, and I have no recollection of him ever stating that, "Jesus must have existed because the supposed Paul claimed he met his brother" . Perhaps you could cite a source for such a statement?

I do recall him mentioning the peculiarly of Paul going out of his way to argue as to why his readers should accept his account of Jesus's purpose over the contradictory accounts of people who actually knew him in life. And I recall him pointing out that you can read between the lines of his account of his meeting with Jesus's actual compatriots and see that they were probably happy to see the back of him after agreeing that he should concentrate his efforts on converting gentiles to his version of Jesus's message. But I have never seen him state anything like the argument that you've attributed to him.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom