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Historical Jesus

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I'm not. I just believe there is history and there are stories. I also believe the religious factors complicate the matter far more than you or they are willing to entertain.

You and I joked about probability percentages a while back about the historicity of Jesus, While we both said it was more likely than not that he did, neither of us offered figures that were anywhere near the certainty that Grant and Ehrman have suggested. So what's the problem?


Indeed (and it's actually the entire crux of this whole dispute) -

- if the claimed "experts" were merely saying that after looking at all the evidence, they tentatively concluded that Jesus might very well have existed, whilst cautioning that none of the evidence was very reliable, then nobody here would be arguing about it!

But that is NOT what the people claimed as the “experts” have said. What they have said is that the evidence shows it to be “certain” that Jesus was a real living person.

And just to remind Belz and others about that – I already quoted numerous statements from Ehrman where he repeatedly insists that “it is certain that he (Jesus) lived”. that
And further on that point – Ehrman very specifically makes a point of telling his readers that “almost all properly trained scholars" agree with him.

And just to avoid any other possible doubt about Bart Ehrman – he is by far the best known academic publishing on this precise topic of Jesus Historicity, and he is also by far the "expert" most often cited by people on these forums who say they agree with & rely upon the "experts" for the reality of Jesus.
 
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Posts like this are the reason why Bart Ehrman compares Mythicists to Holocaust deniers. Throughout the years you have just kept repeating the same thing over and over again. And as evidenced from your exchange with Brainache above, in all those years, you've never bothered to look anything up - another HD'er trait. Sad.


OK, well that probably just explains why you believe in God & Jesus.
 
Which, of course, is a misrepresentation which is par for the course here.

BTW Your links don't show anything to indicate what relevance Michael Grant has to this conversation.

And, based on your suggestion, I'll be sure to add "absence of jumping jews" as one the key techniques of Bible Scholars.

You talk about "misrepresentation" and then post this. Great.

I don't know what conversation you are reading, but I was in a conversation with people saying things like "the only people who accept the HJ are Theologians and Christian Bible Scholars" (paraphrased). I showed that that is not true; Michael Grant was a respected expert on Ancient History, not a Theologian.

Instead of thinking about "jumping Jews" you could think about the lack of any controversy among Historians about HJ. Not all Historians are practising Christians, some are Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Atheist, or...
 
You talk about "misrepresentation" and then post this. Great.

I don't know what conversation you are reading, but I was in a conversation with people saying things like "the only people who accept the HJ are Theologians and Christian Bible Scholars" (paraphrased). I showed that that is not true; Michael Grant was a respected expert on Ancient History, not a Theologian.

Instead of thinking about "jumping Jews" you could think about the lack of any controversy among Historians about HJ. Not all Historians are practising Christians, some are Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Atheist, or...
You seem completely lost.
 
You cited a source that claims to be getting information from aliens.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblioteca_Pleyades

Which one was that? I bookmarked a bunch of links to various translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls a long time ago, I didn't check who was hosting them.

They can probably be found elsewhere. For the record, the Scrolls I quoted were: 1QM The War Scroll (The War Of The Sons Of Light...), 1QS The Community Rule (Manual of Discipline) and 5 QD The Damascus Covenant (Zadokite Document).

I apologise for linking to a bunch of loonies who host the scrolls on their weirdo website.
 
Just to keep the conversation honest & straight (difficult job here) - it has not been said (as someone here just claimed) that the only people who believe Jesus was real are theologians and Bible Scholars (I don't recall any sceptics here who have said that) ...

... all sorts of people believe Jesus was real. Christians in particular almost must believe Jesus was real, because without that their Christian faith diminishes to zero.

But the people who are claimed by the HJ supporters as the "consensus of experts", are Bible Scholars, almost all of whom are practising Christians who already believed Jesus was certainly real before they ever became academics.

No doubt many people with History degrees (and more) also believe Jesus was real. But then ... no doubt the majority of those believers are also practising Christians.

There are many scientists, especially in the USA, who are practising Christians who believe completely in the existence of God ... no doubt most of them also believe Jesus was real.

There's no shortage of Christians who believe Jesus was real. The only question at all in this subject is -

- what is their evidence for saying Jesus was real?


And the answer to that is overwhelmingly that the Bible is their evidence.
 
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Just to keep the conversation honest & straight (difficult job here) - it has not been said (as someone here just claimed) that the only people who believe Jesus was real are theologians and Bible Scholars (I don't recall any sceptics here who have said that) ...

... all sorts of people believe Jesus was real. Christians in particular almost must believe Jesus was real, because without that their Christian faith diminishes to zero.

But the people who are claimed by the HJ supporters as the "consensus of experts", are Bible Scholars, almost all of whom are practising Christians who already believed Jesus was certainly real before they ever became academics.

No doubt many people with History degrees (and more) also believe Jesus was real. But then ... no doubt the majority of those believers are also practising Christians.

There are many scientists, especially in the USA, who are practising Christians who believe completely in the existence of God ... no doubt most of them also believe Jesus was real.

There's no shortage of Christians who believe Jesus was real. The only question at all in this subject is -

- what is their evidence for saying Jesus was real?


And the answer to that is overwhelmingly that the Bible is their evidence.

So we are just going to blow right past your complete failure on the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the idea of a Messiah in 2nd Temple Judaism.

OK, I guess, but everyone can see these posts and decide for themselves who is being "honest & straight" and who is not.
 
What was "daft" about it? He was exactly the kind of expert that you claimed didn't exist. Once again your claim was wrong.
No one can tell that from the links you provided. He's a historian who wrote a book with Jesus in the title. That's what we can tell from the links you provided.

Based on what I see from googling this guy, you should think twice about citing this guy. He appears to be the dead guy that lying Christians cite to make it appear that historians agree with them, when really he's anomaly or maybe doesn't even agree with them at all.
 
No one can tell that from the links you provided. He's a historian who wrote a book with Jesus in the title. That's what we can tell from the links you provided.

Based on what I see from googling this guy, you should think twice about citing this guy. He appears to be the dead guy that lying Christians cite to make it appear that historians agree with them, when really he's anomaly or maybe doesn't even agree with them at all.

There you have it folks, a genuine Historian who wrote extensively on many different aspects of Ancient History can be dismissed as an expert because some Christians somewhere also recognised his expertise.

This guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Grant_(classicist)
Michael Grant CBE (21 November 1914 – 4 October 2004) was an English classicist, numismatist, and author of numerous books on ancient history.[1] His 1956 translation of Tacitus's Annals of Imperial Rome remains a standard of the work. Having studied and held a number of academic posts in the United Kingdom and the Middle East, he retired early to devote himself fully to writing. He once described himself as "one of the very few freelancers in the field of ancient history: a rare phenomenon". As a populariser, his hallmarks were his prolific output and his unwillingness to oversimplify or talk down to his readership. He published over 70 works.

Over 70 works on Ancient History and he still is not considered to be qualified... Bizarre.
 
This thread is making me feel an urge to go back through Paul's legitimate letters in order again... and I found them annoying & tiresome the first time!
 
There you have it folks, a genuine Historian who wrote extensively on many different aspects of Ancient History can be dismissed as an expert because some Christians somewhere also recognised his expertise. ..

Over 70 works on Ancient History and he still is not considered to be qualified... Bizarre.
How much he's written is irrelevant. But also I know of no reason to reject him as a source anyway. But the claim that needs defending is not about any one person, but about the number of others like him. This calls for a survey, not an example.
 
There you have it folks, a genuine Historian who wrote extensively on many different aspects of Ancient History can be dismissed as an expert because some Christians somewhere also recognised his expertise.


I did not dismiss him as an expert. He appears to be an expert. Do you realize you haven't even told me why I care about this guy? What would I even be dismissing his expertise on??
 
Do we agree that if a single source says something then the information contained on that source cannot be relied on as accurate?

It depends on what is the source and what is the information.

A single testimony may be admissible if it is first-hand and its impartiality has been established.

Generalizing too much is dangerous in the human sciences. Exceptions to the universal rule must be taken into account. That is a difference with the sciences of nature.
 
An impartial summary of five days debate:

A consensus composed of 90% of confessional authors cannot be accepted as an authoritative argument.

This does not imply that one should a priori discard the reason that each of them have to admit the existence of a certain Jesus the Galilean.

If we analyze these arguments, the only consistent one we are going to find is the argument of difficulty or embarrassment. This is not very much, but it is some consistent point to discuss.

Your debates have been very interesting but you have ended up losing sight of these basic facts.
 
According to Wiki, Michael Grant completed an undergraduate degree in Classics, but thereafter concentrated with a PhD on the subject of Numismatics (ie a study of old coinage and money etc.). Here is the brief bit that's given in Wiki -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Grant_(classicist)

Grant was born in London, the son of Col. Maurice Grant who served in the*Boer War*and later wrote part of its official history. Young Grant attended*Harrow*and read classics (1933–37) at*Trinity College, Cambridge. His speciality was academic*numismatics. His research fellowship thesis later became his first published book –*From Imperium to Auctoritas*(1946), on Roman bronze coins. Over the next decade he wrote four books on Roman coinage; his view was that the tension between the eccentricity of the Roman emperors and the traditionalism of the Roman mint made coins (used as both propaganda and currency) a unique social record.

As early as the 1950s, Grant's publishing success was somewhat controversial within the classicist community. According to*The Times:
Grant's approach to classical history was beginning to divide critics. Numismatists felt that his academic work was beyond reproach, but some academics balked at his attempt to condense a survey of Roman literature into 300 pages, and felt (in the words of one reviewer) that "even the most learned and gifted of historians should observe a speed-limit". The academics would keep cavilling, but the public kept buying.[4]




That's nowhere near being a specialist academic “historian” focused as an "expert" on the origins of the New Testament and the Historicity of Jesus.

Afaik, Classics is a quite general degree combining such things as the history, languages, philosophy, and archeology of the ancient Greek & Roman empires.

The link also suggests that Grant was a freelance author for most if not all those 70 popular-level books on Roman coinage and Roman history etc. That is – he was not writing from the position of a tenured university academic researcher. He was just making a living as a freelance writer with an interest in that area of Classics, particularly Numismatics.


I don't say any of that to denigrate Grant or to rubbish the career he made for himself as a writer of books on classical History, but the above is nowhere near being an “expert” academic on the historicity of Jesus and the veracity or otherwise of the Biblical writing. It also seems from the above that he wrote only that one single book on the Gospels ... and as far as I know that book is not cited by anyone as worthwile evidence for Jesus.

If that's the level of “Historian” that can be named as “the expert consensus” showing that Jesus was real, then that level is close to zero.
 
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According to Wiki, Michael Grant completed an undergraduate degree in Classics, but thereafter concentrated with a PhD on the subject of Numismatics (ie a study of old coinage and money etc.). Here is the brief bit that's given in Wiki -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Grant_(classicist)

Grant was born in London, the son of Col. Maurice Grant who served in the*Boer War*and later wrote part of its official history. Young Grant attended*Harrow*and read classics (1933–37) at*Trinity College, Cambridge. His speciality was academic*numismatics. His research fellowship thesis later became his first published book –*From Imperium to Auctoritas*(1946), on Roman bronze coins. Over the next decade he wrote four books on Roman coinage; his view was that the tension between the eccentricity of the Roman emperors and the traditionalism of the Roman mint made coins (used as both propaganda and currency) a unique social record.

As early as the 1950s, Grant's publishing success was somewhat controversial within the classicist community. According to*The Times:
Grant's approach to classical history was beginning to divide critics. Numismatists felt that his academic work was beyond reproach, but some academics balked at his attempt to condense a survey of Roman literature into 300 pages, and felt (in the words of one reviewer) that "even the most learned and gifted of historians should observe a speed-limit". The academics would keep cavilling, but the public kept buying.[4]




That's nowhere near being a specialist academic “historian” focused as an "expert" on the origins of the New Testament and the Historicity of Jesus.

Afaik, Classics is a quite general degree combining such things as the history, languages, philosophy, and archeology of the ancient Greek & Roman empires.

The link also suggests that Grant was a freelance author for most if not all those 70 popular-level books on Roman coinage and Roman history etc. That is – he was not writing from the position of a tenured university academic researcher. He was just making a living as a freelance writer with an interest in that area of Classics, particularly Numismatics.


I don't say any of that to denigrate Grant or to rubbish the career he made for himself as a writer of books on classical History, but the above is nowhere near being an “expert” academic on the historicity of Jesus and the veracity or otherwise of the Biblical writing. It also seems from the above that he wrote only that one single book on the Gospels ... and as far as I know that book is not cited by anyone as worthwile evidence for Jesus.

If that's the level of “Historian” that can be named as “the expert consensus” showing that Jesus was real, then that level is close to zero.

He also wrote a book about Paul. The point is that he was a Historian using the standard techniques used by Ancient Historians to research Ancient History. If he was a Bible Scholar you would dismiss him as biased.

Apparently I can't win this game of yours.

Carry on.

Any more thoughts on the Dead Sea Scrolls you'd like to share?
 
He also wrote a book about Paul. The point is that he was a Historian using the standard techniques used by Ancient Historians to research Ancient History. If he was a Bible Scholar you would dismiss him as biased.

This seems to me like discussing the sex of angels.
The fact that an author is a historian does not mean that he applies the historical method in everything he writes. The question is: what are Michael Grant's reasons for asserting that Jesus the Galilee existed?

See that: https://vridar.org/2013/02/25/the-h...an-follows-jesus-to-scholarly-perdition-pt-1/
 
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