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Historical Jesus

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I DON'T recall anyone saying anything remotely like what you're saying. Bart Ehrman is an atheist and he's been referenced many times.

I also think it can not be denied that a successful fabrication is going to resemble to at least some degree a real person.

Grant makes the following remark about the historicity of Jesus.



My response would be, "so"? There is a reason no one questions very much the historicity of pagan historical figures. They are not extraordinary. OTOH, EVERYTHING about Jesus is extraordinary. Most of us in this forum don't believe the supernatural claims about Jesus. If that is a fabrication, why it wrong to doubt it all? Yes, it can be a gross exaggeration about a historical figure. But I don't see how it's really any harder to make the entire story out of whole cloth.
The personage of Jesus is integral to the whole con. I was listening to the Atheist Experience yesterday and the caller was convinced because of details in the resurrection story that it must be true. I laughed about this because it demonstrates that his logic is flawed or he doesn't read much. The best stories and novels are filled with details. It doesn't make the story true. Whether it is Dickens and the Tale of Two Cities or Clancy and The Hunt for Red October, it is the details wove into the story that makes it interesting and somewhat believable.



In case this helps (but cast it aside if you think otherwise) - it's very easy to see how the legend of Jesus could have arisen from entirely mythical beliefs.

In his letters Paul makes clear that he only came to believe in Jesus as the promised messiah because of a religious vision. That's a fact from his own letters.

Before that vision he says himself that he been vehement in preaching the traditional view of Jewish messiah belief, which was that God would send a princely/royal leader who would lead the Jewish people to a great military victory over all those who they had since 1000BC regarded as their bitter enemies and oppressors from other lands.

But as a direct result of that vision, Paul instantly changed his traditionalist messiah belief (promised since at least 500BC in the Old Testament) to belief in an apocalyptic messenger sent by God to gather the faithful in warning of God's now imminent day of the apocalypse.

However, that apocalyptic messiah belief was in fact the same belief found in the the Dead Sea Scrolls when they were discovered in that exact same region between 1946 to 1956. Those Scrolls are most often dated to have been written as an ongoing enterprise from about 200BC through to about 100AD.

If you read the book by Stephen Hodge (The Dead Sea Scrolls), he explains that by at least 100BC (if not earlier) preaching in that region had become very diverse, with people now preaching various versions of an apocalyptically religious messiah, as opposed to the earlier traditional Jewish belief in a princely leader taking the Jewish people to a great military victory.

IOW – Paul came to believe, from his vision, that people like the Essenes (who wrote the Scrolls) had been right in their interpretation of the promised messiah … Paul then began preaching exactly that same sort of apocalyptic view of a religious messiah.

So that, in brief, is a fairly clear explanation of how and why Paul was actually preaching about a spiritual Christ, and not a real living person.

And his letters say exactly the same for all the other people who he says were “in Christ before me” … when he describes all those people as “first Cephas, then the twelve, then more that 500 people at once, then all the apostles, and then James, and then last of all me “ … for all of those people, he only ever says that they too knew Christ from religious visions. And notice that group also includes the same James who was supposed to be “the Lords brother”, ie he too was only ever described by Paul as having met the Christ in a vision.


So just to summarise that - as far we actually know from Pauls letters -

(1) After his vision, Paul was preaching the same sort of Messiah as the Essenes and others in the same region. That appears to be a fact.

(2) Paul says that before his vision he persecuted people who were preaching against his earlier traditional Jewish belief of a princely military non-apocalyptic messiah. That also is a fact in the letters.

(3) Paul names all the people in the Church of God at Jerusalem as knowing Jesus only from visions (he never says or suggests anywhere that any of them had met a real living Jesus). That is also a fact in Pauls letters.

(4) In that scenario, Paul and the others inc. James are only known to have believed in Jesus as a spiritual leader of the far distant past who was written about from at least 200BC by the Essenes in that exact same small region. And that again apears to be a fact (if Pauls letters are to be believed, and if the usual interpration of the Dead Sea Scrolls is accepted).

(5) All these people including Paul himself, believed in Jesus from claiming a religious vision. It was a vision which matched what was being preached in that same region by various people at the time, and which was written about extensively in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the central belief since at least 200BC. Again that is apparently a fact (if we accept the standard dating for the Dead Sea Scrolls).
 
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Belz made a good point about different methods and standards for natural science and study of history. To mind my that is unfortunate, as in principle both deal with the material world (of which humanity is a part) - maybe we can build testable models once true AI is developed and computers get way more powerful. But it seems that the amateurs here think that if we can't use the methods and criterions of natural science in the study of history, and especially in the study of antiquity, that it means that there are NO methods and criterions at all, that any random person is as qualified as distinguished and professional historians. And that is ridiculously and embarrasingly mistaken.

It's not about using the methods of natural science to study history, it's that if the methods used by historians to determine conclusions are not as reliable as those used by natural science then you can't hold the conclusions to the same level of confidence and should be careful in how you communicate those conclusions.

'There is an academic consensus that a historical Jesus is a fact' is a very different statement to 'most people who study this carefully seem to think that it is plausible that there was a person or persons on which the mythology of Jesus is based but they can't really say for sure because there is no evidence to confirm that hypothesis reliably.

Now perhaps academics know that they mean the latter when they say the former but it seems often that the former statement is taken and run with as if it is equivalent to a scientific 'fact' rather than educated guesswork.
 
It's not about using the methods of natural science to study history, it's that if the methods used by historians to determine conclusions are not as reliable as those used by natural science then you can't hold the conclusions to the same level of confidence and should be careful in how you communicate those conclusions.

Exactly, but them's the breaks. That's what they have to deal with, so that's what they do. They simply don't have enough information to be as certain as physicists are. Did Caesar really say "alea jacta est"? We have no clue, actually. It's reported by one dude, possibly for propaganda. Ergo not reliable, right? Well, let's throw away all of that source since it's not credible. Oops, there goes a chunk of what we know about Julius!
 
Except that it isn't the way it works in that field, period.

Yes, they don't have methods able to give the same degree of certainty. That's fine. The problem is that the conclusions cannot be held with the same degree of certainty then. The standard is the same.

In physics you can get a full picture because the evidence is always there. History's not like that. You pretty much always have an incomplete puzzle. So unless you want to torch almost every history book we have, you have to accept that most of it is actually informed guesses.

Which, again is fine. But there are some things of which we are surer than others, and for which there is better evidence than others. It's fine to come up with narratives and informed guesses, never said otherwise. But these should not be presented as being otherwise.

It's not fallacious. Not in the context of that field. That's a fundamental thing that you have to grasp. If you want to apply scientific standards to history, then you have no history.

Fallacies don't rely on context. That's what you have to realise. You are getting dangerously close to accepting religious apologetics because the standards of theology are different to those of science.

I don't have a problem with the methods of history but I have a problem with people trying to use the conclusions of those methods to express a certainty beyond which the methods are capable of providing.
 
Yes, they don't have methods able to give the same degree of certainty. That's fine. The problem is that the conclusions cannot be held with the same degree of certainty then. The standard is the same.

Well, no. The degree of certainty would not be acceptable in hard sciences. That's a different standard, by definition.

Fallacies don't rely on context. That's what you have to realise. You are getting dangerously close to accepting religious apologetics because the standards of theology are different to those of science.

History, not theology. The so-called scholars that Ian dismisses to a person discount the miracles and focus on history.

Regardless, they are not fallacies. They are uncertain, that's not the same thing.
 
Exactly, but them's the breaks. That's what they have to deal with, so that's what they do. They simply don't have enough information to be as certain as physicists are. Did Caesar really say "alea jacta est"? We have no clue, actually. It's reported by one dude, possibly for propaganda. Ergo not reliable, right? Well, let's throw away all of that source since it's not credible. Oops, there goes a chunk of what we know about Julius!

Hang on, what can you 'know' about anyone from a single unreliable source? That's the problem right there.
 
Well, no. The degree of certainty would not be acceptable in hard sciences. That's a different standard, by definition.

No, its not a different standard. It's achieving a different level on the same standard.

History, not theology. The so-called scholars that Ian dismisses to a person discount the miracles and focus on history.

But the reasoning is exactly the same. Theology can be held to a different standard therefore we should accept the religious apologetics of the theological experts. If you disagree you are going to have to tell me how you differentiate the two.

Regardless, they are not fallacies. They are uncertain, that's not the same thing.

If they are fallacies they remain fallacies. That doesn't mean all the methods are fallacious but it certainly seems like some of the arguments put forward here certainly are.
 
Haven't we already been through this? The bible is not their only source. I believe I said that this morning already.

Wait. We were talking about Julius Caesar. Not the Bible.

Do we agree that if a single source says something then the information contained on that source cannot be relied on as accurate?

And that if it's unreliable we can't use it as evidence for the things it claims in order to come to reliable conclusions?

And that no amount of arguing that history is different to science can change that?

And even if what it claims seems plausible or likely to us, that doesn't make the conclusion more reliable?
 
No, its not a different standard. It's achieving a different level on the same standard.

Well sorry but I have no idea what you think a standard is, then.

But the reasoning is exactly the same.

HJ does not violate the laws of physics. I think that's a pretty big distinction.

If they are fallacies they remain fallacies.

They're not. That's my point.

Wait. We were talking about Julius Caesar. Not the Bible.

And? There's not just a single source about him either.

Do we agree that if a single source says something then the information contained on that source cannot be relied on as accurate?

Depends. Sources don't usually exist in a vacuum, as discussed earlier.

And that if it's unreliable we can't use it as evidence for the things it claims in order to come to reliable conclusions?

And that no amount of arguing that history is different to science can change that?

No. We've been through this already.
 
In case this helps (but cast it aside if you think otherwise) - it's very easy to see how the legend of Jesus could have arisen from entirely mythical beliefs.

In his letters Paul makes clear that he only came to believe in Jesus as the promised messiah because of a religious vision. That's a fact from his own letters.

Before that vision he says himself that he been vehement in preaching the traditional view of Jewish messiah belief, which was that God would send a princely/royal leader who would lead the Jewish people to a great military victory over all those who they had since 1000BC regarded as their bitter enemies and oppressors from other lands.

But as a direct result of that vision, Paul instantly changed his traditionalist messiah belief (promised since at least 500BC in the Old Testament) to belief in an apocalyptic messenger sent by God to gather the faithful in warning of God's now imminent day of the apocalypse.

However, that apocalyptic messiah belief was in fact the same belief found in the the Dead Sea Scrolls when they were discovered in that exact same region between 1946 to 1956. Those Scrolls are most often dated to have been written as an ongoing enterprise from about 200BC through to about 100AD.

Paul's Christ is nothing like the Messiah(s) of the DSS. Where are you getting this from?

If you read the book by Stephen Hodge (The Dead Sea Scrolls), he explains that by at least 100BC (if not earlier) preaching in that region had become very diverse, with people now preaching various versions of an apocalyptically religious messiah, as opposed to the earlier traditional Jewish belief in a princely leader taking the Jewish people to a great military victory.

IOW – Paul came to believe, from his vision, that people like the Essenes (who wrote the Scrolls) had been right in their interpretation of the promised messiah … Paul then began preaching exactly that same sort of apocalyptic view of a religious messiah.

That just isn't true. Look at this Dead Sea Scroll:
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses02a.htm
(1) For the In[structor, the Rule of] the War. The first attack of the Sons of Light shall be undertaken against the forces of the Sons of Darkness, the army of Belial: the troops of Edom, Moab, the sons of Ammon, the [Amalekites],
(2) Philistia, and the troops of the Kittim of Asshur. Supporting them are those who have violated the covenant. The sons of Levi, the sons of Judah, and the sons of Benjamin, those exiled to the wilderness, shall fight against them
(3) with [...] against all their troops, when the exiles of the Sons of Light return from the Wilderness of the Peoples to camp in the Wilderness of Jerusalem. Then after the battle they shall go up from that place
(4) a[nd tile king of; the Kittim [shall enter] into Egypt. In his time he shall go forth with great wrath to do battle against the kings of the north, and in his anger he shall set out to destroy and eliminate the strength of
(5) I[srael. Then the]re shall be a time of salvation for the People of God, and a time of dominion for all the men of His forces, and eternal annihilation for all the forces of Belial.

The Qumran Community were all about the coming war against the forces of darkness (ie: everyone who wasn't a fundamentalist Jew).

So that, in brief, is a fairly clear explanation of how and why Paul was actually preaching about a spiritual Christ, and not a real living person.

But it is totally wrong.

And his letters say exactly the same for all the other people who he says were “in Christ before me” … when he describes all those people as “first Cephas, then the twelve, then more that 500 people at once, then all the apostles, and then James, and then last of all me “ … for all of those people, he only ever says that they too knew Christ from religious visions. And notice that group also includes the same James who was supposed to be “the Lords brother”, ie he too was only ever described by Paul as having met the Christ in a vision.

Nope. Wrong again. Paul describes those "Pillars" as knowing Jesus in the flesh, but he considers his vision of a "spirit" Jesus to be superior to their mundane flesh Jesus.
So just to summarise that - as far we actually know from Pauls letters -

(1) After his vision, Paul was preaching the same sort of Messiah as the Essenes and others in the same region. That appears to be a fact.

Nope. Paul's Jesus is nothing like the Messiah of the DSS.

(2) Paul says that before his vision he persecuted people who were preaching against his earlier traditional Jewish belief of a princely military non-apocalyptic messiah. That also is a fact in the letters.

No. Paul said he persecuted followers of "The Way". Want to know what "The Way" was? Let's check the DSS again: http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm
...Until the coming of the prophet and of both the priestly and the lay Messiah, these men are not to depart from the clear intent of the Law to walk in any way in the stubbornness of their own hearts. They shall judge by the original laws in which the members of the community were schooled from the beginning...
For this is the time when 'the way is being prepared in the wilderness', and it behooves them to understand all that is happening. It is also the time when they must needs keep apart from all other men and not turn aside from the way through any form of perversity...

(3) Paul names all the people in the Church of God at Jerusalem as knowing Jesus only from visions (he never says or suggests anywhere that any of them had met a real living Jesus). That is also a fact in Pauls letters.

No it isn't. He specifically describes Jesus as a flesh and blood human descended from Abraham and King David.

(4) In that scenario, Paul and the others inc. James are only known to have believed in Jesus as a spiritual leader of the far distant past who was written about from at least 200BC by the Essenes in that exact same small region. And that again apears to be a fact (if Pauls letters are to be believed, and if the usual interpration of the Dead Sea Scrolls is accepted).

Nope. Wrong again.

(5) All these people including Paul himself, believed in Jesus from claiming a religious vision. It was a vision which matched what was being preached in that same region by various people at the time, and which was written about extensively in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the central belief since at least 200BC. Again that is apparently a fact (if we accept the standard dating for the Dead Sea Scrolls).

Wherever you're getting your DSS info, it's wrong. Here's another one of those pesky scrolls:http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/cd.htm
...But inasmuch as He hates and abominates all that 'build a rickety wall', His anger has been kindled against them; and all who reject His commandments and forsake them and go on walking in the stubbornness of their own hearts will be visited with such judgment as has been described...

All those that entered into the new covenant in 'the land of Damascus' but subsequently relapsed and played false and turned away from the well of living waters shall not be reckoned as of the communion of the people nor inscribed in the roster of it throughout the period from the time the teacher of the community is gathered to his rest until that in which the lay and the priestly messiah [anointed] assume their office...

If there is one thing those Qumran blokes really hated it was people like Paul going around telling folks that they could ignore the Law of Moses. Paul was their enemy.
 
Not to Historians.

This is the whole problem.

The "Historical Jesus," you are saying, it not Jesus of the Gospels.

I agree with that, to an extent. But that just begs the question, so what? I mean, if the claim is that there was a real person who inspired fictional gospel stories, then, ok, but at that level, it is also true that there was a real person, Dorothy, who inspired the character of The Wizard of Oz stories. What's the significance of it?

It doesn't mean that "Jesus was real" or validate anything written in the bible. And from a historical perspective, it doesn't mean anything more than the historical Robin Hood or Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz.

I don't call Jesus a myth, but it certainly is a legend, right up there with Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox.
 
This is the whole problem.

The "Historical Jesus," you are saying, it not Jesus of the Gospels.

I agree with that, to an extent. But that just begs the question, so what? I mean, if the claim is that there was a real person who inspired fictional gospel stories, then, ok, but at that level, it is also true that there was a real person, Dorothy, who inspired the character of The Wizard of Oz stories. What's the significance of it?

Well, it's of historical significance. It puts the birth of Christianity in a historical context.
 
Well, it's of historical significance. It puts the birth of Christianity in a historical context.

But in that respect, it's no more significant than say, the destruction of Jerusalem, or the Council of Nicea or lots of other things.

Yet, we haven't seen major repetitive threads on the Council of Nicea or insistence that we have to accept some facet of those meetings. It's like there is a special pleading about the significance of the HJ.

And the reason is because these discussions aren't about the "Historical Jesus and its relationship with historical context of Christianity."
 
But in that respect, it's no more significant than say, the destruction of Jerusalem, or the Council of Nicea or lots of other things.

True.

Yet, we haven't seen major repetitive threads on the Council of Nicea or insistence that we have to accept some facet of those meetings. It's like there is a special pleading about the significance of the HJ.

Oh, there's special pleading about MJ as well.

And the reason is because these discussions aren't about the "Historical Jesus and its relationship with historical context of Christianity."

Of course they are. What else would they be about?
 
Well sorry but I have no idea what you think a standard is, then.

I have no idea what you think a standard is either then.

HJ does not violate the laws of physics. I think that's a pretty big distinction.

Why are you applying the standards of science to theology?

They're not. That's my point.

Some of them clearly are. And if they are they are still fallacious whether they are being used in science, theology or history. Right?

And? There's not just a single source about him either.

Your example was of a single source. We can't rely on that source right?

Depends. Sources don't usually exist in a vacuum, as discussed earlier.

No, it doesn't depend. This is idiocy.

No. We've been through this already.

Then you are simply arguing white is black.
 
I have no idea what you think a standard is either then.

It's a set of criteria that's used to draw conclusions, in this case. If the criteria are lower or higher, or different, than in another field, it's a different standard.

Why are you applying the standards of science to theology?

I'm not. What are you talking about?

Some of them clearly are.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Your example was of a single source. We can't rely on that source right?

No, my example was about one source. I didn't say no other source existed. Come on.

No, it doesn't depend.

Of course it does! Do you think the bibble exists in its own world? It was composed in a historical context by people who lived in a certain area and had a certain culture, etc. and etc. What we know about said context can inform our interpretation of various parts of the works. This isn't controversial.

Then you are simply arguing white is black.

No, you're simply wrong about your inference because you're ignoring a number of elements.
 
It's a set of criteria that's used to draw conclusions, in this case. If the criteria are lower or higher, or different, than in another field, it's a different standard.

The conclusions are either true or false. That's the standard.

I'm not. What are you talking about?

Then you must be willing to accept that in theology breaking the law of physics is not a problem. So do you agree with the consensus of theologians that God exists? If not, why do you think you know better than experts in the field? And why are you not willing to accept the standards of theologians in determining whether their conclusions are sound or not?

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Concluding that something is more likely to be true because it sounds more plausible to you is fallacious reasoning. It's still fallacious reasoning if its done in history.

No, my example was about one source. I didn't say no other source existed. Come on.

Then why would we have to throw away what we know about Julius Caesar in your example if its corroborated by other sources? All I said is that we cannot rely on a single source. If your counter argument is that we can if its not the only source then you have missed the point.

Of course it does! Do you think the bibble exists in its own world? It was composed in a historical context by people who lived in a certain area and had a certain culture, etc. and etc. What we know about said context can inform our interpretation of various parts of the works. This isn't controversial.

It can inform a lot of things, what it can't tell you is whether the things only contained in a single source are true.

No, you're simply wrong about your inference because you're ignoring a number of elements.

I'm asking you a simple question that has a simple answer and you are trying to muddy the waters by introducing new elements that are unnecessary and failing to answer straight questions. I am not trying to catch you out just get a base agreement on things that are simple.
 
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