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Historical Jesus

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But the issue is that people who have a long expertise in a field can interpret the evidence better than you. That's why we have experts in the first place -- we can't each have all of that knowledge in all fields.

So what's the difference between these experts and others? You'll say that one has the evidence and the other not, but what makes you able to determine what evidence is enough if you are not, yourself, a historian, or a physicist? At some point you have to trust some authority on these topics.

Except all fields are not equal.

Religious historians are certainly experts on ancient script. I don't question their expertise on reading ancient Greek and Syrian Aramaic. But their ability to tell us the historicity of the people and events written on the script is severely limited. I'm not saying Jesus didn't exist. But I'm skeptical of even Ehrman when he claims certainty based on such scant evidence.
 
Religious historians are certainly experts on ancient script. I don't question their expertise on reading ancient Greek and Syrian Aramaic. But their ability to tell us the historicity of the people and events written on the script is severely limited.

Why? Serious question.

Or, alternatively, who has that ability?
 
I presume you've participated in discussions on this topic before, correct? You must be aware of the plethora of arguments for and against HJ? If so, why ask this?

You asked me why I thought experts in ancient history are limited in determining the difference between legendary and historical figures. My question was rhetorical.
 
I presume you've participated in discussions on this topic before, correct? You must be aware of the plethora of arguments for and against HJ? If so, why ask this?
Ummm. Personally, I find the notion that there might once have been itinerant rabbi in the levant who later became labelled "jesus" an entirely unremarkable circumstance.

Sadly, even considering such a mundane thing as a possibility causes an immediate outbreak of the war between the MJ/HJ camps.

I really don't much care either way, but the idea inspires much panty wadding for some reasons unidentified as if it somehow mattered. For anything.

But for some reason, the whole HJ/MJ thing evokes a visceral and frankly savage and irrational response from both sides, because....Why? I have no idea.
 
Ummm. Personally, I find the notion that there might once have been itinerant rabbi in the levant who later became labelled "jesus" an entirely unremarkable circumstance.

Sadly, even considering such a mundane thing as a possibility causes an immediate outbreak of the war between the MJ/HJ camps.

I really don't much care either way, but the idea inspires much panty wadding for some reasons unidentified as if it somehow mattered. For anything.

But for some reason, the whole HJ/MJ thing evokes a visceral and frankly savage and irrational response from both sides, because....Why? I have no idea.

I'm with you on this. While I'm skeptical of the historicity of Jesus, I'm not saying he didn't exist.

But it really doesn't matter. The whole story is either a total fabrication or a massive exaggeration. What difference does it make which one?
 
But their ability to tell us the historicity of the people and events written on the script is severely limited.


Some people are asking why some of care whether or not Jesus existed. I don't. The sentence you just quoted is the subject I care about. The whole "science" of hermeneutics was basically invented to give a veneer of science to the interpretation of the Bible. It's a "science" that can't be demonstrated to actually work and claims to extract information that simply isn't present in the documents. It's a flim-flam. They are no more "experts" than chiropractors or creationists.
 
The thing about the alleged "consensus" is a giant red herring. Not only is there no sign that it's even true, but even if it is, it still wouldn't matter. The relevant question is not which side has more people on it, but which side has presented the better case.

The following is the text from the works of Josephus that describes Jesus and mentions the crucifixion.
It is considered to be a falsification inserted by the early Christians. Obviously a hand written text could be fixed by scribes at any time in the approximately 1500 years the manuscript existed before printing was invented.
???????

Good one.
Do you object to the idea that it's forged? Or do you read the prepositional phrase at the end of that sentence as connected to the verb "considered" instead of the verb "inserted"? Or do you infer that the sentence after that is intended to be the basis for the idea that it's forged?

There are problems with using it to show that Jesus was a historical person anyway, even if one completely believes that the text is authentic, but I'll get that below. For now, some of the possible meanings that your minimalism could be hiding would call for some explanation of the forgery idea in response, and it's possible that some readers have never seen it spelled out, so:
  1. The writing style is not the usual for Josephus, not only in the way it heaps religiously adoring praise on its subject but also in its lack of explanation of things that would have been unfamiliar to his Roman audience, for whom he's known for giving detailed explanations of Israelisms in the rest of his writing.
  2. Elsewhere, he has a section listing several guys who wandered around that area preaching similar preachings, some of whom are even named Jesus... but the Jesus we're looking for is not among them. His paragraph of Josephus is far off somewhere else. If Josephus believed in that particular Jesus, he would have mentioned him there; even if he thought this one was different from the rest, he would have at least said how he's different.
  3. So, where did it end up instead, if it's not where it belongs, where it would have been if it were real? In the middle of a series of descriptions of other stuff that happened in Roman Palastine/Judea, completely from unrelated to anything about religion or prophets/preachers. (I might be misremembering, but for some reason I'm getting that one of them was a Roman politician sex scandal; most of it had to do with politicians, at least.) In fact, the very next thing after the Jesus paragraph begins "...And then another calamity/scandal/crime happened...". But the Jesus paragraph hadn't mentioned any such thing, so what was the preceding one that the word "another" takes off from? It can only be the last thing that had been mentioned before the Jesus paragraph. There's no way for this placement to make a speck of sense; the whole sequence only really works without the Jesus paragraph in it at all. This isn't just forgery, it's dim-wittedly amateurish forgery.
  4. Other commentators who quoted Josephus in their own manuscripts, and wrote about Jesus and earlier writings concerning Jesus themselves, and thus would be expected to have something to say about Josephus's mention of Jesus, don't seem to have noticed that paragraph's existence for a few hundred years. Then it finally starts getting quoted & referred to where it would be expected in later Josephus commentaries... almost as if that's when it got added.

As for its content, aside from the forgery issue:
The following text is from Flavius Josephus (c37-100AD)
The Antiquities of the Jews. Book 18.3.3

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
This does indeed express belief in the Jesus story, including some of the supernatural bits. Unfortunately, it does so in Rome in the year 93 or 94. At that time, he doesn't know the truth any better than anybody else who got the stories 200th-hand like he did. (And would we take any other Jew's belief in Jewish religious stuff as a sign that Jewish religious stuff must be true? No; it's just an example that lots of Jews believed it.) All this tells us is that the stories were being told. It could be entirely authentic and it would still be useless for establishing historicity of Jesus.

From the annals of the Roman historian Tacitus. Annal 15:44

15.44.2. But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour.
15.44.3. The originator of this name, Christ, was sentenced to torture by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified.
This does indeed express belief in some version of Jesus, without the supernatural parts of the story. Unfortunately, it only does even that limited version in the first couple of decades of the second century. At that time, he doesn't know the truth any better than anybody else who got the stories 200th-hand like he did. All this tells us is that the stories were being told.

Pliny the Younger
Pliny was the governor of the Roman province of Bithynia, in present-day Turkey. In about 112 AD, he wrote (in Epistles X.96) to the emperor Trajan, asking for advice on how to deal with the Christians in his province, because he was executing so many of them. Pliny wrote:

'They were in the habit of meeting before dawn on a fixed day. They would recite in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and would bind themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any criminal act, but rather that they would not commit any fraud, theft or adultery, nor betray any trust nor refuse to restore a deposit on demand. This done, they would disperse, and then they would meet again later to eat together (but the food was quite ordinary and harmless.)
This doesn't even claim that Jesus was real. It just claims that Christians were. Around the end of the first century & beginning of the second.

What this all adds up to for the historical Jesus is: nothing... actually, less than that, because it even adds one little thing going the other direction: a perfectly realistic alternative explanation for where the idea of Jesus would come from without Biblical Jesus having ever been real. Remember that some of those wandering preachers Josephus mentioned had one thing or another or more in common with Jesus, sometimes including his name. This does even more than just set up the idea of rebellious wandering preachers as a general concept in the background of the common psyche of that place & time, from which an individual fictional character could precipitate with a mix of various real people's details and fictional ones (which would fit the introduction of one of the Gospels, I think Luke, where it even tells you from the start that the author is not a witness but a guy trying to bring together a mess of contradictory stories that were floating around at his time and make a single more coherent explanation out of them). Josephus's vaguely-Jesusy-preacher-cloud also even shows that the name "Jesus" would be the single most likely name to get attached to such a coalescent construct, and gives us clear points of origin for some of the details the assembly would assimilate. And the one guy whose life story seems to fit Gospel-Jesus on the most points along the way (like getting arrested and giving the Romans cryptic non-answers instead of defending himself) was active in the 60s, which, while it's late enough to prove that he can't be "the Biblical Jesus" (along with the different father's name, place of birth, and cause of death), is still easily early enough for those fragments of his story to have been a part of the Jesus-cloud that the Gospels were drawing from. So one of the sources that Christians try to use to show that Jesus was real not only doesn't, but actually even clarifies a simple alternative for us without even trying to.

Whether the "Jesus was real" side has most of the unbiased pros on their side or not, they need to present a sound case for their conclusion. What they give us instead is, at best, only a case for the existence of Christians telling Christian stories and doing Christian rituals. (And the equivalent of that "but there are more of us!" gimmick has turned out the be a lie in the last few cases I've seen it tried on other subjects anyway.)
 
Some people are asking why some of care whether or not Jesus existed. I don't. The sentence you just quoted is the subject I care about. The whole "science" of hermeneutics was basically invented to give a veneer of science to the interpretation of the Bible. It's a "science" that can't be demonstrated to actually work and claims to extract information that simply isn't present in the documents. It's a flim-flam. They are no more "experts" than chiropractors or creationists.

How do you evaluate the historicity of a mythology? All we really know is there were stories about an itinerant rabbi. Nothing else can be concluded honestly.
 
The following is the text from the works of Josephus that describes Jesus and mentions the crucifixion.
It is considered to be a falsification inserted by the early Christians. Obviously a hand written text could be fixed by scribes at any time in the approximately 1500 years the manuscript existed before printing was invented.
But that is no reason not to give it consideration.

???????

Good one.

Do you object to the idea that it's forged? Or do you read the prepositional phrase at the end of that sentence as connected to the verb "considered" instead of the verb "inserted"? Or do you infer that the sentence after that is intended to be the basis for the idea that it's forged?

Do you see the irony in the the two highlighted passages? I did.
 
The further the documents are away from the events in time and distance, the more questionable they become. When they are written 30, 50 100 a 1000 years later the more ridiculous they grow as a source. When people point to Josephus and Tacitus as proof, it really is ridiculous.
.
Please answer a simple question: Are Pliny, Tacitus or Plutarch's texts ridiculous for studying the history of Rome?

In ancient history texts are dated in other ways than by the date of their first manuscript.
 
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Under the Roman occupation, leaders who opposed the status quo were a-dime a-dozen: people yearned for someone to replace their collaborating leaders.
So no doubt you could find someone a bit like Jesus at the time (by using a TARDIS) - heck, you could probably find ten.
I find it far more likely that the NT Jesus is an amalgam of historical characters, events and wishful thinking made to fit an agenda.
Given how long after the supposed events the texts were written, accuracy is not something we can expect.
 
To affirm that Jesus existed because there is a consensus among the experts is to resort to a false principle of authority because the consensus of those experts is not neutral.

To discredit by principle anyone who says that Jesus existed because he participates in that false consensus is dogmatic. It turns into an ad hominem argument. In this case it will be necessary to discuss whether the reasons given are valid.

For example: non-believing authors who claim that Jesus existed resort to the principle of difficulty or embarrassment. It is not plausible that a legend was formed about a divine man dying on the cross, because the cross was an infamous punishment reserved for ignoble people. In the facts early Christians don't represent the crucifixion until the fifth century or more.

This is what must be discussed and not the issue of consensus.
 
Excuse me. YOU may not be talking about historians, but I've been talking about them exclusively. I'm sorry if you thought I was talking about some other group..


Which "historians" have you named (or quoted) here, who you say are claiming to have shown Jesus was real?

I don't recall you naming any such historians. Who are you are claiming to name?

So far in all the literally hundreds of thousands of posts that have been made on this subject on this forum and on two other forums (over more than 10 years), the only people that have been named are Bible Scholars. In fact there is only one who has been named by almost every poster who has ever claimed to believe Jesus to be real, and that is Bart Ehrman, and he is a Bible Scholar, not a "historian".


Then you honestly have no basis for your objection.


Ha, ha, what a joke that is – you are now claiming that I have no basis for criticizing Bible Scholars, because I have not criticised any actual Historians!! … well so far we have not had any hstorians cited here for us to criticise.

Do you want me to criticise your “historians”? OK, well produce some here, and we can decide if they should be criticised! …

… if they do what Biblical Scholars do and claim that the bible is evidence showing Jesus was “certainly” real and that all properly qualified “scholars” agree with that, then I will certainly critiicise them, and so should anyone else who cares about the honesty and truth of what people (your so-called “experts” who we must obey) claim.


Look, cut the crap now – you claim that Jesus is more likely to be real (60% likely), Right; so what is your evidence for that positive conclusion?

Just produce what you claim to be the evidence please.
 
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So far in all the literally hundreds of thousands of posts that have been made on this subject on this forum and on two other forums (over more than 10 years), the only people that have been named are Bible Scholars. In fact there is only one who has been named by almost every poster who has ever claimed to believe Jesus to be real, and that is Bart Ehrman, and he is a Bible Scholar, not a "historian".
.

What is an historian? Why a Bible scholar cannot be an historian?

Historian
: someone who writes about or studies history.

HIstory: (the study of or a record of) past events considered together, especially events of a particular period, country, or subject.
(From the Cambridge Dictionary on line)

According that Bart Ehrman is an historian.
 
Which "historians" have you named (or quoted) here, who you say are claiming to have shown Jesus was real?

I don't recall you naming any such historians. Who are you are claiming to name?

Who said anything about naming? You said you were talking about scholars. Are you therefore claiming to be naming them? That makes no sense.

So far in all the literally hundreds of thousands of posts that have been made on this subject on this forum and on two other forums (over more than 10 years), the only people that have been named are Bible Scholars. In fact there is only one who has been named by almost every poster who has ever claimed to believe Jesus to be real, and that is Bart Ehrman, and he is a Bible Scholar, not a "historian".

Ok how do YOU distinguish the two? When does a scholar become an historian or vice-versa?

Ha, ha, what a joke that is – you are now claiming that I have no basis for criticizing Bible Scholars, because I have not criticised any actual Historians!!

No, that isn't what I said. I said that if you don't know if any actual historians exist, then you cannot say whether they are biased. Your claim would be based on ignorance.

Look, cut the crap now

Gee, I wish you would.

you claim that Jesus is more likely to be real (60% likely), Right; so what is your evidence for that positive conclusion?

Done to death in other threads. I suggest you go back and read those. As I indicated earlier I'm not going to retread all of that here. Not while we're focusing on the issue of consensus and expertise, anyway.
 
You have not established that the experts have a consensus on this.

Well, when posters here use ad hominems to make experts into non-experts or discount their conclusions because of their religion, sure, it's hard to find consensus among experts, since the experts no longer exist, almost by definition. It's a nice trick, I have to admit. But it's not really an argument.

The relevant question is not which side has more people on it, but which side has presented the better case.

Indeed, but then who makes that determination? Laypeople?
 
1. Who said anything about naming? You said you were talking about scholars. Are you therefore claiming to be naming them? That makes no sense.


2. Ok how do YOU distinguish the two? When does a scholar become an historian or vice-versa?


3. No, that isn't what I said. I said that if you don't know if any actual historians exist, then you cannot say whether they are biased. Your claim would be based on ignorance.


4. Gee I wish you would


5. Done to death in other threads. I suggest you go back and read those. As I indicated earlier I'm not going to retread all of that here. Not while we're focusing on the issue of consensus and expertise, anyway.


First highlight 1. It was you who just claimed that you have been talking here about "Historians" who believe Jesus was real. I am asking you to name them and tell us what evidence they have used.

And you are apparently incapable of doing that.


Highlight 2. A historian is an academic lecturer & researcher who is employed in the history department of a genuine university, and who publishes results of his/her research in genuine neutral history journals.

That is not the case for bible scholars.


Highlight 3. A cascade of deception here from you - I did not say that I was unaware of any historians existing. I said that I was unaware of any that were properly independent/unbiased (i.e. not already Christian believers in Jesus) who were writing to say Jesus existed on the basis of evidence from the bible.

You were the one who claimed such historians exist - well, so name them please, and tell us what their claimed evidence is.

As far as your claim of ignorance is concerned - I already pointed out to you that so far all the claims of "experts" have cited only Bible Scholars and not independent historians ... so far neither you nor anyone else here has produced any of your claimed "historians"!

Highlight 4. You cut out your crap and just produce the evidence which you say makes it 60% likely that Jesus was real …

… where is your 60% evidence? So far you have produced precisely NONE!

Highlight 5. Right, so you have no evidence to produce at all ! Nothing, not a single word.

How did you get to 60% with zero evidence? You can only do that on blind faith!


You have talked enough complete crap here now – JUST PRODUCE YOUR EVIDENCE OF JESUS

… where is the evidence that you are relying upon?

Just produce the evidence please.

Don't try anything else, just provide that which you claim as the evidence of Jesus (because nothing short of real evidence will do here).
 
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