PotatoStew
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
- Messages
- 78
Hi kuro... thanks for the reply:
I think we are talking past each other a bit here. For starters, yes, the way you've defined miracle, it would be "impossible" for one to occur because it would be unobservable. If it was observable, it would be "natural" and therefore no longer a miracle. All you've done is define it out of existence. However, your definition isn't necessarily *the* definition of miracle... m-w.com defines a miracle as "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" or "an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment" ...natural laws do not necessarily have to be circumvented, and we don't run into problems with needing obsevable supernatural events.
Of course, dueling dictionaries gets us nowhere. Even if we go with your definition, my point wasn't necessarily that "miracles" in general can't be ruled out as having never happened, but rather that a specific "miraculous" occurrence can't be said to have never happened. In other words, I don't think you can legitimately say "X event has never occurred" even if "X" seems to violate what we currently know of the physical laws. The fact is that since we don't know all the laws it is possible that "X" is just an extremely rare case that still conforms to the laws of the universe, only it does so in a way that we don't yet understand.
Mind you, I'm in no way saying that this is an argument by which one can claim that a miracle *has* occurred, I'm only saying that it doesn't seem correct to me to say that a given miracle could not ever have occurred.
At any rate, this line of discussion is at best tangential to the thread, and I think that Cleopatra had it right when she said "The fact that miracles don't happen doesn't mean that a man named Jesus didn't exist." That's about all that would seem to matter as far as this thread is concerned. Sorry if I dragged the tangent on too long -- if you have anything to add you may have the last word on the subject. If you don't see where I'm coming from by this point, I don't expect any further arguments will change that.
kuroyume0161 said:
A miracle therefore contradicts the laws of nature and of scientific evidence which is how this universe and science operate. The universe operates as it does and science is a method that codifies our observations about this operation. If operations within the universe could be circumvented or temporarily anulled, then there would be no possible way to add them to any coherent model. As I stated already, there is no way to validate a "miracle", therefore it is special pleading to invoke the possibility of their existence. Unlike a "God" that exists external to the universe (and therefore has protection from existence determination), miracles act directly within the universe. Anything that does this can be observed and measured. That means that it is natural, not supernatural. Therefore, it cannot be a miracle (by definition). A contradiction has no asylum in "proving a negative".
I think we are talking past each other a bit here. For starters, yes, the way you've defined miracle, it would be "impossible" for one to occur because it would be unobservable. If it was observable, it would be "natural" and therefore no longer a miracle. All you've done is define it out of existence. However, your definition isn't necessarily *the* definition of miracle... m-w.com defines a miracle as "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" or "an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment" ...natural laws do not necessarily have to be circumvented, and we don't run into problems with needing obsevable supernatural events.
Of course, dueling dictionaries gets us nowhere. Even if we go with your definition, my point wasn't necessarily that "miracles" in general can't be ruled out as having never happened, but rather that a specific "miraculous" occurrence can't be said to have never happened. In other words, I don't think you can legitimately say "X event has never occurred" even if "X" seems to violate what we currently know of the physical laws. The fact is that since we don't know all the laws it is possible that "X" is just an extremely rare case that still conforms to the laws of the universe, only it does so in a way that we don't yet understand.
Mind you, I'm in no way saying that this is an argument by which one can claim that a miracle *has* occurred, I'm only saying that it doesn't seem correct to me to say that a given miracle could not ever have occurred.
At any rate, this line of discussion is at best tangential to the thread, and I think that Cleopatra had it right when she said "The fact that miracles don't happen doesn't mean that a man named Jesus didn't exist." That's about all that would seem to matter as far as this thread is concerned. Sorry if I dragged the tangent on too long -- if you have anything to add you may have the last word on the subject. If you don't see where I'm coming from by this point, I don't expect any further arguments will change that.