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Historical Jesus

Hi kuro... thanks for the reply:

kuroyume0161 said:

A miracle therefore contradicts the laws of nature and of scientific evidence which is how this universe and science operate. The universe operates as it does and science is a method that codifies our observations about this operation. If operations within the universe could be circumvented or temporarily anulled, then there would be no possible way to add them to any coherent model. As I stated already, there is no way to validate a "miracle", therefore it is special pleading to invoke the possibility of their existence. Unlike a "God" that exists external to the universe (and therefore has protection from existence determination), miracles act directly within the universe. Anything that does this can be observed and measured. That means that it is natural, not supernatural. Therefore, it cannot be a miracle (by definition). A contradiction has no asylum in "proving a negative".

I think we are talking past each other a bit here. For starters, yes, the way you've defined miracle, it would be "impossible" for one to occur because it would be unobservable. If it was observable, it would be "natural" and therefore no longer a miracle. All you've done is define it out of existence. However, your definition isn't necessarily *the* definition of miracle... m-w.com defines a miracle as "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" or "an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment" ...natural laws do not necessarily have to be circumvented, and we don't run into problems with needing obsevable supernatural events.

Of course, dueling dictionaries gets us nowhere. Even if we go with your definition, my point wasn't necessarily that "miracles" in general can't be ruled out as having never happened, but rather that a specific "miraculous" occurrence can't be said to have never happened. In other words, I don't think you can legitimately say "X event has never occurred" even if "X" seems to violate what we currently know of the physical laws. The fact is that since we don't know all the laws it is possible that "X" is just an extremely rare case that still conforms to the laws of the universe, only it does so in a way that we don't yet understand.

Mind you, I'm in no way saying that this is an argument by which one can claim that a miracle *has* occurred, I'm only saying that it doesn't seem correct to me to say that a given miracle could not ever have occurred.

At any rate, this line of discussion is at best tangential to the thread, and I think that Cleopatra had it right when she said "The fact that miracles don't happen doesn't mean that a man named Jesus didn't exist." That's about all that would seem to matter as far as this thread is concerned. Sorry if I dragged the tangent on too long -- if you have anything to add you may have the last word on the subject. If you don't see where I'm coming from by this point, I don't expect any further arguments will change that. :)
 
PotatoStew said:
m-w.com defines a miracle as "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" or "an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment" ...natural laws do not necessarily have to be circumvented, and we don't run into problems with needing obsevable supernatural events.

Natural Laws MUST be circumvented for a miracle to occur. The first definition is correct.

The second one is wrong. I am the only man in the history of the military to serve on all three legs of the nuclear triad. That is a singularly unique accomplishment in the history of the world. Am I a miracle?

For a virgin birth to occur - natural laws must be broken.

I can't think of any miracle where natural laws aren't broken
 
triadboy said:


Natural Laws MUST be circumvented for a miracle to occur. The first definition is correct.

The second one is wrong. I am the only man in the history of the military to serve on all three legs of the nuclear triad. That is a singularly unique accomplishment in the history of the world. Am I a miracle?

For a virgin birth to occur - natural laws must be broken.

I can't think of any miracle where natural laws aren't broken
As PototoStew has noted your definition of 'miracle' is 'something that can't happen'! Miracles, though, may have more to do with pointing towards The Kingdom of God; miracles as signs
 
triadboy said:


Does the fact that the early church fathers had to invent a reason why the Jesus story was so similar to mystery religion stories pique your interest?
I asked for your argument against a partial interpolation and you respond with an argument from absence. I suggest that the only reason to quote the presumed original would be in the context of a 2nd century debate on historicity, and you sputter and babble about Celsus and Martyr. You dance poorly ...
 
triadboy said:
Here is what Celsus believed to be the Jesus story:

"Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god." (Celsus)
Just to clarify, this account is what Celsus argued was the historical truth underlying the Jesus story. Celsus certainly was familiar with the Jesus story as presented in the four Gospels.
 
kuroyume0161 said:


I agree. The problem when it comes to history (paleontology, archaeology, etc.) is that absence of evidence is absence of anything.
It would be hard to fault agnosticism regarding the issue of historicity. However, as I've noted before, and as I'm sure you recognize, agnosticism is not the same as fervent denial. Furthermore, history is a tenuous thing, and often there is little to go on beyond circumstantial evidence and informed speculation. The site on Messianic Claimants seems relevant on two levels:
  1. Such claimants were apparently far from rare.
  2. Much of what we know comes to us primarily, and sometimes solely, by way of Josephus.
I see little reason to insist that 20.9.1 was a forgery. Given that, I see little reason to insist that TF was more than a partial interpolation. Given this, and the reasonable presumption of a Jerusalem cult, the historicity of a cult leader appears to me to stand as the more reasonable possibility.
 
ReasonableDoubt said:
Given this, and the reasonable presumption of a Jerusalem cult, the historicity of a cult leader appears to me to stand as the more reasonable possibility.

We all agree in the possibility of the existence of a character whose life was mythicized into the glorious god-man we see now.

I personally don't think Josephus ever wrote about him OR if he did was uncomplementary of him. It would have been very easy for someone to insert a paragraph (in a very strange place of the narrative, by the way) and also insert "the brother of Jesus, who was Christ". We know of other forgeries (letters, Gospels, etc), it seems reasonable (from my studies) to consider the references by Josephus forgeries also.

Josephus disliked all the rabble-rousing would-be Messiah figures and was uncomplementary of them. And yet here is this one passage that is complementary of Jesus the Christ. It doesn't fit.

Origen - writing at the beginning of the 3rd century is unaware of the Testimonium Flavianum. He CERTAINLY would have referenced it if it existed.

Origen does make mention of the other Jesus reference, however:

"The only usually undisputed allusion to Jesus in Josephus is actually only a passing reference in the context of the trial of James. James is identified, not as James son of ???? as one would normally expect but as brother of Jesus. While this passage is more likely to be authentic than the one above, it is not without problems. Origen knows and cites this passage, and is unaware of the 'Testimonium Flavianum' above, providing some evidence for its presence in the Antiquities before its Christian reworking. On the other hand, Origen's version contains the unlikely addition in which Josephus also says that it is as punishment for the execution of James that Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed. The possibility suggests itself that even Origen's Josephus has undergone Christian reworking, simply of a different variety, in which, perhaps, the insulting Testimonium has been expunged, and James has been introduced as a pious Jewish hero."
(copied from http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html)
 
From The Jesus Mysteries, Freke/Gandy p239:

Clumsy Christian additions were made to the works of the Jewish Pythagorean Philo, and ridiculous legends invented that he had held discussions on the Law with the disciple John and met Peter in Rome! The Jewish historian Josephus was likewise transformed into a Christian and was even equated with the New Testament figure of Joseph of Arimathea! As previously discussed, addtions were made to his works that reverentially testify to the historical existence of Jesus.

A further document attributed to Josephus called On The Essence Of God was also forged to reinforce the previous forgery by putting Christian doctrines into Josephus' mouth. Through careful linguistic studies, scholars now know "beyond any doubt" that the forger of this text was none other than Hippolytus (c. 222), the arch-heresy-hunter and protege of Irenaeus! Scholars have also shown similarities in language and style between this forgery and Paul's Second Letter to the Thessalonians, which was written to call into question the authenticity of the first (genuine) letter. So, Hippolytus may well have also been the forger of this letter of Paul.
 
ceo_esq said:
Just to clarify, this account is what Celsus argued was the historical truth underlying the Jesus story. Celsus certainly was familiar with the Jesus story as presented in the four Gospels.

Agree. He was familiar with the Gospel stories and ridiculed them as being the same story as Mithra, Dionysus, etc.
 
triadboy said:
Origen - writing at the beginning of the 3rd century is unaware of the Testimonium Flavianum.
Rubbish, The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You haven't a clue what Origin "is unaware of".

triadboy said:
He CERTAINLY would have referenced it if it existed.
More rubbish. You're becoming tiresome, repeating your mantra and simply pretending that you've said something reasonable. In fact, it is far from 'CERTAIN'. If one assumes that TF is (only) a partial interpolation, there is zero compelling reason why anyone would quote it except within the context of a debate on historicity, and you have offered no evidence of such a debate.
 
ReasonableDoubt said:
Rubbish, The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You haven't a clue what Origin "is unaware of".

Poppycock! If Josephus had another paragraph for Origen to quote - he would have quoted it. ESPECIALLY, a juicy paragraph like the TF. Do some more studying and come back in 10 years.

More rubbish. You're becoming tiresome, repeating your mantra and simply pretending that you've said something reasonable. In fact, it is far from 'CERTAIN'. If one assumes that TF is (only) a partial interpolation, there is zero compelling reason why anyone would quote it except within the context of a debate on historicity, and you have offered no evidence of such a debate.

More poppycock! If the TF existed he would have quoted it. These idiotic xians needed something to prop up their fantasy religion and ANY quote from Josephus would have done it. You see how he jumped all over the other Jesus reference - and it was a forgery too.

Why does Jesus HAVE to exist for you? Would that tear your world apart? Can you imagine Paul starting a mystery religion with a Jewish hero. And eventually this myth comes to be believed as history? That is what Celsus and others were saying to the new xians - 'why do you believe this is history when it is myth'?
 
ReasonableDoubt said:
You haven't a clue what Origin "is unaware of".

I am aware Origen knew there were many xian forgeries, additions, and deletions present in xian and secular writings.
 
I think that the following article goes to this thread.....
I have access to this article through a discussion list that I follow I don't think that I violate the copy-right rules.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Feb. 19, 2005. 01:00 AM

Who wrote Dead Sea scrolls?
Scholars have long believed that Essenes, a Jewish sect, had written
the documents in Qumran Now Israeli archaeologists claim Essenes
didn't live there or write the scrolls, writes Neil Altman

More questions about the authorship of the Dead Sea Scrolls are being
asked today than any time since the documents were discovered 57
years ago.

The ruins of Qumran, where many scholars theorized that a Jewish
monastic brotherhood known as the Essenes copied the books of the Old
Testament, have yielded new evidence that casts doubt on the Essene
theory.

Itzhak Magen and Yuval Peleg, Israeli archaeologists who spent 10
seasons in the digs at Qumran, announced last summer that the
evidence they found all but proves that the Essenes didn't live there
and didn't write the Dead Sea Scrolls.

What they uncovered in the course of digging and sifting at Qumran
included jewellery and imported Italian pottery — not the sort of
things that an order of poor monks would have.

Magen and Peleg also came away from their work believing the Essene
theory should have died decades ago based on evidence that one
archaeologist, the late Roland de Vaux, couldn't have missed. A
respected scholar priest, de Vaux excavated Qumran for five years in
the 1950s and helped turn the Essene theory into dogma.

"It is impossible to say that the people who lived at Qumran were
poor," Peleg told Israel's Haaretz newspaper. "It is also impossible
that de Vaux did not see the finds we saw. He simply ignored what
didn't suit him."

A core of scholars who still support de Vaux's theory, including
scholars who have become famous for their research, articles and
books on the Dead Sea Scrolls and have much at stake in the debate,
have rejected Magen and Peleg's conclusions.

But archaeologist and Qumran expert Katherine Galor, a Brown
University professor, said that while some scholars are having a hard
time accepting the new research, many others no longer accept the
Essene theory.

Galor, who agrees with Magen and Peleg's conclusions that the Essenes
had nothing to do with the scrolls, noted that if Qumran had been the
place where hundreds of scrolls were written, the evidence would have
been all over the site. But it wasn't.

Not one scroll nor one scrap of writing has been found at Qumran, she
said, adding that nothing at Qumran — from its architecture to the
archaeologists' finds — suggest it was different from the other non-
religious communities in the vicinity.

There is evidence now to suggest that an Essene sect wasn't
established until after the time of Christ. But in the early 1950s,
scholars, looking for a way to connect the newly discovered Dead Sea
Scrolls to Qumran, revived a theory first put forth by biblical
critics in the 1800s.

Long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, scholars who
questioned the truth of the Bible developed the Essene theory to
account for the origins of Christianity. They speculated that it
sprang from a sect of pre-Christian Jews. These scholars also
suggested that John the Baptist and Jesus himself were Essenes. Yet
nowhere in the New Testament are the Essenes mentioned, though other
sects are, including the Zealots, Herodians, Sadducees and Pharisees.
In fact, the writers of the scrolls never called
themselves "Essenes." Rather, they referred to themselves as "the
poor" or "poor in spirit," which also happen to be terms applied to
the early followers of Jesus.

Today, a growing number of scholars say the writers of the scrolls
should not be referred to as "Essenes" but as the "Qumran sect."

The records of historians Pliny and Philo, who were writing in the
decades after Jesus' death, include sketchy details about sects. Dead
Sea Scroll scholars combined several sects into one — the Essenes —
to account for the authorship of the scrolls.

Josephus, a prominent Jewish historian of the same period, also wrote
about such a sect, calling its members city dwellers who lived
in "every town in Israel." They didn't live in a desert or
wilderness, like the Dead Sea region. In 1998, respected Israeli
archaeologist Yizhar Hirschfeld created a stir by asserting that
Essenes lived not at Qumran but at Ein Gedi, a Dead Sea community 20
miles south of Qumran. But Hirschfeld found a striking similarity
between that community and the monasteries built centuries later by
Byzantine Christians.

In a letter two years later, Hirschfeld wrote, "The remains I
uncovered at Ein Gedi fit better the description of Pliny the Elder.
This adds another proof that the site of Qumran had nothing to do
with the Essenes."

Peter Pick, an archaeologist and the former dean of arts and sciences
at Columbia Pacific University in California, added a nail to the
coffin of the Essene theory when he told Newsday in 1997 that "the
most telling thing was there was no synagogue at the Qumran site."

First-century Jews built synagogues in places where they lived for
only a few years, such as the fortress at Masada. Why, Pick asks,
wouldn't the Essenes have built a synagogue at Qumran where they
supposedly lived for more than a century?

Comparing the secular sites of Masada and Herodium in the light of
Peleg and Magen's discoveries at Qumran led Pick to say in October
2004 that "Qumran is not a religious site but a secular site."

But people called "Ossaeans" did live along the northern shores of
the Dead Sea after A.D. 68. Some scrolls scholars believe they were
the Essenes.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
First century Jews built synagogues in places where they lived only a
few years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------


Epiphanius, a church father of the third and fourth centuries A.D.,
wrote that the "so-called heresy of the Ossaeans ... originated from
the regions of Nabataea and Ituraea, Moabitis and Arielitis, from the
regions that are situated at the other side of the lake that in the
Holy Scripture is called Dead Sea." The fact that Epiphanius calls
them a "heresy" suggests that they had a Christian background.

Other groups lived not far away in the Golan Heights region. Claudine
Dauphin, a French archeologist, found that Judeo-Christian sects
emerged after the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and continued into the
medieval period.

"At two of the sites," she wrote, "we started finding bizarre stuff —
Christian symbols intertwined with Jewish symbols ... like a menorah
covered by a ship, representing the church, whose mast was a cross,
or a lulav (palm branch) whose top branches formed a cross."

This may explain why some lameds — the tall Hebrew letter for "L" —
found in a Dead Sea Scroll called the Copper Scroll are turned into
crosses and why there are Xs in the margins of passages in the Isaiah
Scroll that speak of the Messiah.

Another important clue in the search for the Essenes is offered by
Athanase Negoitsa in Revue de Qumran. He writes about a document by
Nilus the Ascetic of the fourth century A.D. that indicates the
Essenes lived then. Nilus praises their "meditative and lofty moral
life." But he regrets that the Essenes do not follow in the true
philosophy of the gospel of Christ, implying that they were a
heretical Christian group.

Is there a source that clearly states the Essenes originated in the
Christian period and not before?

In the writings of the Christian church fathers, the Jews who
believed in Jesus were called "Nazarenes" and kept the laws of Moses
and the customs of the Jewish people. That dispels the gentile myth
that the Jewish people rejected Jesus. But between the time of the
first gentile believer — the Roman centurion Cornelius — and the time
that large numbers of gentiles in Antioch were converted, what name
differentiated gentiles?

Epiphanius wrote: "All Christians were called Nazoraeans (Nazarenes)
once. For a short time they were given also the name Iessaeans
(Essenes), before the disciples in Antioch began to be called
Christians."

Epiphanius thus contradicts the theory that the Essenes were a pre-
Christian sect. Many scholars regard Epiphanius as an extremely
important source. In Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, German scholar
Rainer Riesner states, "According to reliable tradition in
Epiphanius, the Jewish Christian community left the Holy City at the
outbreak of the Jewish War (A.D. 66-70) to settle at Pella in the
Decapolis."

Negoitsa writes: "Epiphanius was born in Palestine ... spoke five
languages,Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Coptic, and Aramaic. Thus he was able
to read all the documents and writings ... (had) precise information
regarding the sects of Palestine and especially those in the region
harbouring the Dead Sea." But even Negoitsa doesn't mention
Epiphanius' statements about "Iessaeans." What is the derivation of
this Greek word, and does this have any bearing on Christianity?

Phillip Comfort, former professor of Greek and New Testament at
Wheaton College and senior Bible editor at Tyndale Publishing House,
said the word "Iessaeans" or "Essenes" comes from the Greek
word "Iessaios," which means Jesse, the father of David.

"The early Christians may have called themselves this because the
Messiah was called the Son of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10, Romans 15:12),"
wrote Comfort, whose analysis offers further insight into Epiphanius'
statements that the Essenes were a Christian sect. How then could the
Essenes be the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which supposedly date
as far back as 300 B.C.?

The discovery of the scrolls "merely revived (this) old, long
discarded theory," claims Millar Burrows in More Light on the Dead
Sea Scrolls.

Scroll scholar A. Dupont-Sommer explains that the Essene theory was a
product of 18th-century biblical criticism. It speculated that
Jesus "was imbued with Essene ethics, which in their turn, owe much
to Zeno," who was a Greek philosopher of the 5th century B.C.

In The Essene Writings from Qumran, Dupont-Sommer said the Christian
apologists saw this philosophy as "a weapon, a devilish theory
designed to sap the originality and transcendence of Christian
revelation.

"It is, therefore, not difficult to understand the very lively
opposition of a number of Christian historians, Catholic and
Protestant alike, in the 19th century and during the first half of
the 20th."

In fact, the Essene theory had become a scholarly attack upon Jesus,
the uniqueness of his teaching, his Jewishness, his early years and
his divinity.

Though soundly refuted in the last century, the Essene theory began
gaining acceptance again in the 1950s. Jewish scholars, such as
Zeitlin and P. R. Weiss, were among a growing number who challenged
the early dating of the scrolls as well as the theory that the
Essenes wrote them. They believed the scrolls dated from the medieval
period, rather than 300 B.C. to A.D. 50.

Zeitlin wrote that "ascribing ... the scrolls to the pre-Christian
period (was) theologically motivated." The scrolls were being used as
propaganda against Christianity, he said, by back-dating them to the
pre-Christian era. Many scholars who no longer held to historic
Christian doctrinal beliefs revived the Essene theory to attack the
Judeo-Christian heritage. Ironically, it was the Jewish scholars who
defended Christianity.

Curiosity about the Dead Sea Scrolls continues as new pieces to the
puzzle of their origin are put into place and access to the Dead Sea
Scrolls becomes less restricted. Scholars now must search for the
true identity of those who wrote and carefully stored them in 11
caves near Qumran.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Neil Altman is a Philadelphia-based writer who has specialized in
writing about the Dead Sea Scrolls. David Crowder, a reporter with
the El Paso Times, assisted with this article.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1108595411286&call
_pageid=970599119419
 

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