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Hindsight clarifies that Vietnam was a really bad war

No it doesn't. Popular does not imply unstoppable. Why would you say that 'popular implies unstoppable' when "popular" does not imply "unstoppable"?

The thing with "popular" revolutions was that they werent really popular (For one, the Russian Revolution was followed by a Civil War). Rather, they were more often coup D'etats, replacing the Ancient regime with another Authoritarian regime

If they were Truly Popular (more than 50% support the revolutionaries) then they would be unstoppable.
 
If they were Truly Popular (more than 50% support the revolutionaries) then they would be unstoppable.
FYI there is a little more to overthrowing a government than merely having the support of 50%+1 of the population. Why did you assert something so so blindingly incorrect? Were you momentarily blinded by the wrongness of the statement you made and accidentally hit the post button because you couldn't see?
 
It happens all the time in elections Taarkin.

However, if the VC were truly popular, then where was the Mass revolt?
 
I was using elections as an example.

It was more of an insurgency than a "popular revolution". If that were the cae, then why was the VC all but defunct after Tet?
 
It was more of an insurgency than a "popular revolution". If that were the cae, then why was the VC all but defunct after Tet?
Because they were badly beaten in a series military engagements. (Remember, it is possible for popular things to be defeated)
 
If they were Truly Popular (more than 50% support the revolutionaries) then they would be unstoppable.

Bejaysus, you're starting to sound like Mao! :eek:

But, in all seriousness, many a popular revolution has been crushed by violence and authoritarianism, just look at the history of Latin America, from Mexico to Chile truly popular movements were very effectively crushed throughout the 20th C. Allende's was a truly popular movement but look what good that was once Pinochet started rounding supporters into football stadiums and murdering them.
 
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o_O

Bit_Pattern,

Allende was NOT popular by the time of his overthrow. Ever heard of the March of the Empty pots or the numerous Supreme Court rulings against him? What about the Chamber of Deputies resolution condemning Allende for turning the country into a communist dictatorship.

And Pinochet only killed ~2-3k, which shows that it wasnt a really popular movement. Claims of a "Chilean Holocaust" have been extremely exaggerated.

As well as that, if it were a "popular revolution", then why did it have to be supplied and funded by the Communist North as well as having to be orchestrated from the North too? They were just appendages of North Vietnamese Policy.
 
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Allende was NOT popular by the time of his overthrow.

Allende garnered more votes in 1973 than he did in 1970, he was MORE popular by the time of his overthrow than at the time of his election.

Ever heard of the March of the Empty pots or the numerous Supreme Court rulings against him? What about the Chamber of Deputies resolution condemning Allende for turning the country into a communist dictatorship.

What does any of that have to do with popular support?

And Pinochet only killed ~2-3k, which shows that it wasnt a really popular movement. Claims of a "Chilean Holocaust" have been extremely exaggerated.

According to whom? And since when does the number killed have any bearing on popular support? You can inflict a hell of a lot of terror by killing 3000 people.

As well as that, if it were a "popular revolution", then why did it have to be supplied and funded by the Communist North as well as having to be orchestrated from the North too? They were just appendages of North Vietnamese Policy.

Since when is external support indicative of whether a movement is popular or not?
 
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Evidence for that claim? There was no election in 1973 in Chile.

It shows that Allende wasnt popular. Not by a long stretch. If he was so popular, then why was he trying to increase power for the executive? Why did he try to impose more control upon the Chilean People, which led to the Chamber of Deputies Resolution? Why the merger of the two houses of legislature? Why did many hold protests against Allende?

The Rettig and Valdetch reports on Pinochet's Abuses were where i got my figure of 2-3k dead.

The huge amount of External Support from North Vietnam shows that the VC were just lackeys for the North. They weren't a popular revolution. Why did they rely solely on North Vietnamese and Chinese support? Indeed, the ho Chi Minh trail was their lifeline and you had many from the NVA as "volunteers" like in Korea a few years before.
 
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I was using elections as an example.

It was more of an insurgency than a "popular revolution". If that were the cae, then why was the VC all but defunct after Tet?

And you don't think that the systematic extermination policy I mentioned (e.g., operation Phoenix) had anything to do with it?

I mean, Jesus-onna-stick, I'm used to revisionist history, but your delusions have got to take the cake. Claiming that the systematic extermination of communists is some kind of indication that people started to no longer like communists is as ridiculous as, dunno, claiming that disappearance of private property under Lenin or Mao is because people no longer wanted to own stuff.

Also, since I'm at revisionist history, earlier you seemed to genuinely believe that there was some political engineered famine in the North... well, yes, engineered by the Americans that is. Let me introduce you to Agent Blue, a herbicide not as well known as Agent Orange, but one which was specifically engineered to destroy rice. And enough soil contamination could even render the plot of land useless for agriculture long term.

Yes, you've read that right. America didn't just use such agents, you know, to deny the commies cover in the jungle, but some were explicitly and intentionally targeted to destroy crops and agricultural land.

Some 1.25 million gallons of Agent Blue alone were used in Vietnam alone, rendering half a million acres of agricultural land useless long term. That is, in addition to the more immediately destroyed crops.

So, yes, there was a politically engineered famine. But not by the commies. It was engineered by the murderous idiots at Washington.

Incidentally Agent Blue (and Orange, and White) was also used against Laos to destroy crops and arable land there too. Although, again, Laos was as per the 1962 Geneva convention a neutral country. And in Cambodia too.

Ironically the quest to maintain the chemical attacks secret (America feared it would be used by commie propaganda) was a cause for even more destruction, as conventional carpet bombings were used to "mask" the chemical attacks. You know, to make it look like everything died there because of normal bombs, not because of spraying chemicals.

In case you still wonder why those Khmer Rouge suddenly swelled in numbers. Destroying the peasants' crops, and "masking it" by carpet bombing their village, didn't quite make them love America.
 
HM,

I was referring to Tet, and not Phoenix, where 2/3 of the VC attackign force were killed or captured. Although Phoenix was a success in taking out terrorists, it didnt have as much impact as the Tet offensive had on the VC.

And show evidence that the US committed Genocide in Vietnam. NOW.

As for the famine, i was referring to 1954/55. Was the Rainbow Herbicide system, :rule10 up? Yes. But it was largely meant to draw out the Communists. It was meant as a short term solution, and the effects long term were not known.

And as for Laos and Cambodia, the Pathet Lao and KR (supported by the north) were operating in those areas and the North was active there too. therefore, they were fair game.

I find it insulting that you would compare me to David Irving, MaGZ or Matt Giwer.
 
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Also, after Tet the Viet Cong was largely simply absorbed into the structure of the Northern army and party. There wasn't really much reason to join the pro-commie Resistance... in the commie-occupied zone.
 
HM,

I was referring to Tet, and not Phoenix, where 2/3 of the VC attackign force were killed or captured. Although Phoenix was a success in taking out terrorists, it didnt have as much impact as the Tet offensive had on the VC.

.... "Terrorists" meaning people who were simply members of the communist party, and most of which never had actually killed anyone, much less committed anything classifiable as "terrorism".

And show evidence that the US committed Genocide in Vietnam.

The documents for the herbicide spraying, bombing missions and CIA assassinations is largely public by now, plus, you could always just follow the links.

As for the famine, i was referring to 1954/55.

You mean the combination of drought, floods, lingering effects of the war that just ended there (e.g., the bombed irrigation systems), and economic embargo against the commies were... somehow engineered by Ho Chi Minh? My word, your reality distortion field knows no limits. I didn't know Ho could control the weather or dictate the west's foreign policies.

I find it insulting that you would compare me to David Irving or Matt Giwer.

Strawman. I wasn't comparing you to anyone. I think you've said enough BS to stand on its own merits, I don't need any further association.
 
Let's see, Memebership of the Viet Cong, which was like Membership of AQ or the Taliban. Although it relied on He Said She Said, VC membership is ust like membership of any terrorist organisation and because Counterinsuegency tacics werent really developed in that time, it became "terminate" most of the time.

A good link (scroll down a bit): http://www.psywarrior.com/VietnamOBPSYOP

All those :rule10 up incidents =/= genocide unless there was a systematic campaign to destroy a National, Ethnic, Racial or Religious Group. Was Vietnam hell? Was US policy :rule10 up? Yes to both. But You whitewash the Communists of any wrongdoing and give them a free pass at every turn.

I could apply that same argument to Stalin's Russia or North Korea, therefore whitewashing their policies of any wrongdoing. Because, naturally the Communists do things in the name of the Revolution and can therefore do no wrong :rolleyes:

you were comparing me to Holocaust deniers.
 
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Evidence for that claim? There was no election in 1973 in Chile.

Oh, yes there was!

It shows that Allende wasnt popular. Not by a long stretch. If he was so popular, then why was he trying to increase power for the executive? Why did he try to impose more control upon the Chilean People, which led to the Chamber of Deputies Resolution? Why the merger of the two houses of legislature? Why did many hold protests against Allende?

Many people hold protests against Obama, does mean he has no popular support? And parliamentary mechanisms put into place by the oligarchs who were on the verge of losing their influence over the population is no way indicative of popular support

The Rettig and Valdetch reports on Pinochet's Abuses were where i got my figure of 2-3k dead.

So ?what is the critical mass of murder before it becomes indicative of popular support? I mean ONLY 3000 people? How many people does it take, according to you

The huge amount of External Support from North Vietnam shows that the VC were just lackeys for the North. They weren't a popular revolution. Why did they rely solely on North Vietnamese and Chinese support? Indeed, the ho Chi Minh trail was their lifeline and you had many from the NVA as "volunteers" like in Korea a few years before.

Like Hans said, you revisionism takes the cake. Even McNamara admits that America was sorely mistaken about the level of support for the VC from the North, and even then by 1960 America recognised that a "significant part" of the population supported the VC - which is why they were able to operate in the South with virtual impunity, because they were supported by the people.
 
bit_Pattern

Prove it. Now. All i can finds is the 1973 Parliamentary election and that was whenever the PU was not a majority. The Chamber of Deputies passed their resolution by 81-47.

So any action ever taken against a President who was becoming more and more totalitarian is only because of the "oligarchs?" whenever they were consistent with the Supreme Court? Wow, i think i know who is the revisionist here. Chile was on the brink of Civil War. It was more complicated than the modern day USA. Inflation had gone up to critical levels, Allende was messing up the Chilean economy and things looked like they might go to hell. As well as that, Allende had seriously breached his oath to respect the Chilean constitution as noted in Supreme Court Rulings and the Chamber of Deputies resolution.

And I was trying to say that because Pinochet only killed so few people that Allende's regime wasnt exactly popular, otherwise he'd have to have done more extensive purges.

If they were able to operate in South Vietnam with virtual impunity, why were they gutted after tet? Why did they deliberately attack civilians if they had the support of the people? http://www.psywarrior.com/VietCongAtrocity.html

Revisionism is saying "USA holocausted babies in vietnam for the lulz" or blaming communist atrocities on natural disasters.
 
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Also, after Tet the Viet Cong was largely simply absorbed into the structure of the Northern army and party. There wasn't really much reason to join the pro-commie Resistance... in the commie-occupied zone.

I believe joining the "resistance" was compulsory in most of the rural Communist controlled areas.
 
bit_Pattern

Prove it. Now.

I was sure a bright chap like yourself would have mastered Google by now... Congressional elections where Allende's party increased their vote.

So any action ever taken against a President who was becoming more and more totalitarian is only because of the "oligarchs?" whenever they were consistent with the Supreme Court? Wow, i think i know who is the revisionist here. Chile was on the brink of Civil War. It was more complicated than the modern day USA. Inflation had gone up to critical levels, Allende was messing up the Chilean economy and things looked like they might go to hell. As well as that, Allende had seriously breached his oath to respect the Chilean constitution as noted in Supreme Court Rulings and the Chamber of Deputies resolution.

No, just that it's not indicative of popular support.

And I was trying to say that because Pinochet only killed so few people that Allende's regime wasnt exactly popular, otherwise he'd have to have done more extensive purges.

So killing 3000 people wouldn't have scared anyone else away from supporting the movement?

If they were able to operate in South Vietnam with virtual impunity, why were they gutted after tet? Why did they deliberately attack civilians if they had the support of the people? http://www.psywarrior.com/VietCongAtrocity.html

A. As has been pointed out to you numerous times now, popular support doesn't translate into military superiority.

B. So no popular movement has ever taken retribution on elements of society that didn't support it? riiiight :rolleyes:

Revisionism is saying "USA holocausted babies in vietnam for the lulz" or blaming communist atrocities on natural disasters.

No, that's juts plain idiocy.
 

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