Hillary Clinton is Done

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How is Obama's foreign policy so obviously terrible? Particularly compared to his (rightfully loathed, around the world) predecessor...:rolleyes:

You forget that one of the reasons Bush's policies failed is because the iraq invasion left a power vacuum that is currently festering. Obamas foreign policy while taking burdens to avoid boots on the ground have revolved around a similar mentality of removing governments and supporting groups to overthrow them. Recall the handling of syria and Libya in particular. These efforts have largely failed to address the groups to take a foot hold after the fact and often times have proven worse threats. Among tje countries involved in the arab spring egypts the only one thats been left mostly intact
 
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I suggest rather then the posterior of the right wing echo chamber, you get your information regarding the world from reputable sources. You clearly haven't a clue.

You offer insults, but no argument. Perhaps you have none.
 
There's plenty of room for disagreement here, no doubt, but I would suggest that there is a substantive difference between extreme, even incendiary, rhetoric and the purposeful ridiculing of proper names.

Oh cripes, it is just a Nickname, fairly commonly used by Hillary supporters at Hillary is 44 back in the day.
 
Weiner, A Documentary

It seems the problems are coming hard and fast for Hillary lately. The latest? well lets hear from the New York Times:

In May 2013, Huma Abedin and Anthony D. Weiner allowed filmmakers full access to his mayoral campaign with the hopes that the end result would document a spectacular political comeback, with Mr. Weiner being sworn in as mayor of New York having emerged from a scandal centered on explicit texting that forced him to resign from Congress. Things did not go quite according to plan.

The NYT further notes that Weiner "has become a source of heightened anxiety for Ms. Abedin and the Clinton campaign. .... Ms. Abedin and a spokesman for the Clinton campaign declined to comment."

Film Shows Clinton Aide’s Own Struggle With Weiner
 
You forget that one of the reasons Bush's policies failed is because the iraq invasion left a power vacuum that is currently festering. Obamas foreign policy while taking burdens to avoid boots on the ground have revolved around a similar mentality of removing governments and supporting groups to overthrow them. Recall the handling of syria and Libya in particular. These efforts have largely failed to address the groups to take a foot hold after the fact and often times have proven worse threats. Among tje countries involved in the arab spring egypts the only one thats been left mostly intact
Yeah because we should have just provided an army for another couple decades propping up an incompetent regime. That was so successful. :rolleyes:
 
It seems the problems are coming hard and fast for Hillary lately. The latest? well lets hear from the New York Times:

<snip for brevity>

The NYT further notes that Weiner "has become a source of heightened anxiety for Ms. Abedin and the Clinton campaign. .... Ms. Abedin and a spokesman for the Clinton campaign declined to comment."

Film Shows Clinton Aide’s Own Struggle With Weiner
Clinton's aid's husband acted improperly (in the domain of personal behavoir). Where's Kevin Bacon when you need him? (I guess Kevin's still busy; see up-thread.)
 
Yeah because we should have just provided an army for another couple decades propping up an incompetent regime. That was so successful. :rolleyes:

Versus.... arming people to overthrow an existing tyrant. History typically hasn't reflected well on that strategy either... much as you might want to shift off that dilemma. You should be familiar with how the partnership ultimately worked out in the case of Afghanistan when the Russians invaded.


Theres a choice between getting involved and not. But if the former, it cannot be half baked... we have the results of that from two administrations as demonstration
 
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You offer insults, but no argument. Perhaps you have none.
I offer up the opinions of the democracies of the world.

You know, the people who count. As opposed to right wing rags Internet "skeptics" regurgitate and pass off as arguments.

But please, continue to ignore the real world in favor of right wing nonsense.

Reality is insulting to those who view the world through red colored glasses.
 
You forget that one of the reasons Bush's policies failed is because the iraq invasion left a power vacuum that is currently festering.
Indeed!
Obamas foreign policy while taking burdens to avoid boots on the ground have revolved around a similar mentality of removing governments and supporting groups to overthrow them. Recall the handling of syria and Libya in particular. These efforts have largely failed to address the groups to take a foot hold after the fact and often times have proven worse threats. Among tje countries involved in the arab spring egypts the only one thats been left mostly intact
Obama policies have been muted compared to Bush's, but no, not successful because they had no chance of succeeding because we don't have a clue about what the ME wants for themselves. In fairness, there as many opinions about that as there are political groups in the ME (that's probably still an understatement).

Obama should have done almost nothing in the ME. It's quicksand and the west will never be able to impose our culture on them. We should react when our direct interests are at risk, not when they are "simply" killing each other.
 
I offer up the opinions of the democracies of the world.

You know, the people who count. As opposed to right wing rags Internet "skeptics" regurgitate and pass off as arguments.

But please, continue to ignore the real world in favor of right wing nonsense.

Reality is insulting to those who view the world through red colored glasses.

That is a lot of words to say: "I have nothing."

Except the opinions of teh democracies of teh WOrld!

I actually giggled when I read that BS.
 
Our Libya intervention was a disaster. Our handling of Syria is a catastrophe. Our withdrawl from Iraq (which Obama bragged about and Romney warned about) was been a cluster. Russia has been carving up Ukraine. Iran is walking all over us, even though we abandoned the green revolution and we've been trying to kiss up to them ever since. China is building military bases in disputed territory. For some unknown reason we backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. About the only mess I don't at least partially blame him for is North Korea, since that's basically Bill Clinton's screwup.

What do you imagine has actually gone right with this administration's foreign policy?



That's ultimately the only defense of Obama: he's not Bush. He cannot be defended on his own merits, because he has none.

You offer insults, but no argument. Perhaps you have none.


I have a couple.

First and foremost, there is obviously strong disagreement on those being obviously disasters of Obama's foreign policy. Many have been disasters, but were they both obviously worse than alternatives, and obviously attributable to Obama's foreign policy? Even if one agrees that any one of these is obviously a disaster, and that the policy choice was ineffective or contributed negatively, that doesn't make the decision a low quality one; outcome bias can certainly come into play.

Secondly, while each of these has their own threads, I'll try to have short rebuttals of each. There wasn't any better choice in Libya but it was worth a shot. Iraq was going to be a mess regardless due to the choices of the previous administration and the Iraqi government, and withdrawing at that time was close to the least bad option. Egypt was and is massively complex and it wasn't just backing the Muslim Brotherhood at times. I actually think we should have been harder on Russia and not strongly supporting the sovereignty of the Ukraine in accordance with their giving up their nuclear deterrence was a mistake, but it could have also played into Putin's hand by providing a big bad so it's not clear. The characterization of Iran is laughably wrong. China has largely backed down from the hottest contentions, but ask again in 24 hours because that has a lot less to do with the US than it does with China itself.

What has gone right is avoiding many potentially huge disasters, deals with Iran which decreases hostility and decreases the likelihood of them getting nuclear arms, thawing relations with Cuba, getting Europe to take a more active roll in international issues, and a lot more. I know that you disagree, but that doesn't make the choices responsible for 'obvious disasters'. If we had a metric about which we could judge these things it would probably be along the lines of how these things have negatively effected the US. Have they cost a lot of lives and money? No, nowhere near previous choices or alternate choices.

Politically running on 'foreign policy disaster' isn't going to gain much traction when the alternatives advanced by the leading Republicans are believed by the electorate to be much worse. Trying to pin any of Iraq on Obama will only stick with those who would never vote Dem anyway. The Iraq war simply isn't old enough for the public to have forgotten.
 
I offer up the opinions of the democracies of the world.

No you didn't. The only opinion you offered up was your personal opinion of my information sources, something you don't have any actual knowledge of and the world at large has never opined on. And even if you had offered up such an opinion, you're not going to win with an argument ad populum fallacy.

But please, continue to ignore the real world in favor of right wing nonsense.

Again, just insults, no actual argument.
 
I have a couple.

First and foremost, there is obviously strong disagreement on those being obviously disasters of Obama's foreign policy. Many have been disasters, but were they both obviously worse than alternatives, and obviously attributable to Obama's foreign policy?

In most cases, yes, they were obviously worse than alternatives. China is the only arguable exception, though I think they have been emboldened by our failures elsewhere.

Secondly, while each of these has their own threads, I'll try to have short rebuttals of each. There wasn't any better choice in Libya

Yes there was: do nothing. Another option: don't try to smuggle weapons to Syrian rebels through Libya.

Iraq was going to be a mess regardless due to the choices of the previous administration and the Iraqi government, and withdrawing at that time was close to the least bad option.

No. It was relatively stable. Obama even bragged about it being stable. He was warned that this stability could collapse if we left.

And those warnings were completely correct.

Egypt was and is massively complex and it wasn't just backing the Muslim Brotherhood at times.

I'm not saying we should have backed Mubarik. But we chose to back the Muslim Brotherhood specifically, and that was a mistake. An easily avoidable one, too.

I actually think we should have been harder on Russia and not strongly supporting the sovereignty of the Ukraine in accordance with their giving up their nuclear deterrence was a mistake, but it could have also played into Putin's hand by providing a big bad so it's not clear.

We're a "big bad" regardless of what we do. That's not what's holding Putin back.

The characterization of Iran is laughably wrong.

No, it isn't. They're violating missile test bans. They're kidnapping our military personnel and holding them for ransom. They're giving every indication that they won't actually abide by the nuclear deal. We're getting shafted.

And our complete lack of any support, even simply rhetorical support, for the green revolution is really inexcusable.

What has gone right is avoiding many potentially huge disasters

This is what's called avoiding disasters?

deals with Iran which decreases hostility

You're kidding yourself. They are no less hostile.

and decreases the likelihood of them getting nuclear arms

No. It might possibly delay them getting nuclear arms, but it does nothing to decrease the likelihood. Given how much money they're getting out of the deal, the chances are going up, not down.

thawing relations with Cuba

That's not terribly impressive. Or important.

getting Europe to take a more active roll in international issues

They're more active out of necessity because we're failing. That's not really an achievement. And they're not doing so hot either. They're handling this "refugee" crisis completely wrong, for example.

If we had a metric about which we could judge these things it would probably be along the lines of how these things have negatively effected the US. Have they cost a lot of lives and money? No, nowhere near previous choices or alternate choices.

The Soviets left Afghanistan in 1989, and we essentially abandoned the country. Twelve years later, Al Qaeda struck the US from bases in Afghanistan. Twelve years before we paid the biggest price for that mistake.

Do not imagine that you now have the full reckoning of Obama's mistakes.

Politically running on 'foreign policy disaster' isn't going to gain much traction when the alternatives advanced by the leading Republicans are believed by the electorate to be much worse. Trying to pin any of Iraq on Obama will only stick with those who would never vote Dem anyway. The Iraq war simply isn't old enough for the public to have forgotten.

If you're arguing about how the public will perceive things (rather than how things actually are), well, Hillary voted for the Iraq war, so this isn't really much of a defense of her.
 
Versus.... arming people to overthrow an existing tyrant. History typically hasn't reflected well on that strategy either... much as you might want to shift off that dilemma. You should be familiar with how the partnership ultimately worked out in the case of Afghanistan when the Russians invaded.


Theres a choice between getting involved and not. But if the former, it cannot be half baked... we have the results of that from two administrations as demonstration

So out of two bad options, why should the one that gets American soldiers killed be the one you'd choose? Are you like the NeoCons who just want to prove we're the baddest guys in the hood?
 
So out of two bad options, why should the one that gets American soldiers killed be the one you'd choose? Are you like the NeoCons who just want to prove we're the baddest guys in the hood?
As it presently stands, you have an extremist group proclaiming to be a Caliphate taking large swaths of territory inside syria AND Iraq which provides an established network to carry out attacks abroad. The invasion of Iraq was not a good idea... recklessly withdrawing troops from a country whose government is still weak allowed for a shaky situation from the previous adninistration to get worse, and the resulting instability has allowed a worse group to occupy the power vacuum left behind.

What's your solution? Are you OK with doing nothing in exchange for allowing an extremist group establish a foothold? Im reluctant to send more US troops in and would rather see the ME countries take a role personally. But as i see it between the failures of the last two to three or more administrations on the ME... I have a hard time seeing any "good choice". There is enough historical precedent to reasonably make that determination

Instead of trying to read my mind... try asking my rationale first. Thnx

Eta: but its also another threads worth of material
 
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As it presently stands, you have an extremist group proclaiming to be a Caliphate taking large swaths of territory inside syria AND Iraq which provides an established network to carry out attacks abroad. The invasion of Iraq was not a good idea... recklessly withdrawing troops from a country whose government is still weak allowed for a shaky situation from the previous adninistration to get worse, and the resulting instability has allowed a worse group to occupy the power vacuum left behind.

What's your solution? Are you OK with doing nothing in exchange for allowing an extremist group establish a foothold? Im reluctant to send more US troops in and would rather see the ME countries take a role personally. But as i see it between the failures of the last two to three or more administrations on the ME... I have a hard time seeing any "good choice". There is enough historical precedent to reasonably make that determination

Instead of trying to read my mind... try asking my rationale first. Thnx

Eta: but its also another threads worth of material
I did ask you. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: "Are you like the NeoCons who just want to prove we're the baddest guys in the hood?"

Back to the issue:
I thought Obama was correct when he said a bunch of guys with assault rifles in the back of pickup trucks were not an existential threat to the US.

There are people killing and maiming each other all over the planet and we don't intervene in every situation. I do feel we screwed the place up and have some responsibility, but not 100% of the responsibility.

But more importantly, it's very clear that the US being there does more to exacerbate the problem than it does to alleviate it.
 
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So, just popping in to point out that Nate Silver is giving Clinton a 64%-80% chance of winning Iowa. Please don't let this distract you from "I know a couple who knows a couple who claims to have swung with the Clintons".
 
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