Hillary Clinton is Done: part 2

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Maya22 said:
...A few of them might choose to vote for Jill Stein, though.
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That is my most likely course of action, and who I probably would have voted for at the top of the ticket in this election if Senator Sanders had not run.
 
dudalb said:
Almost all of the Bernie supporters will vote for Hilary in November for one reason: Trump.
If it was another Mainstream GOP candidate like McCain or Romney I could see them sitting this one out, but sheer fear of what Trump would do as President will bring the Bernities to the polls in November.
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Hopefully they will also be so motivated if Cruz wins the nom.
 
Trakar said:
I don't disagree with you. However, there seems to be a primary misunderstanding here. I don't dislike Hillary because I like Bernie. My Dislike of Hillary goes back a long time. I supported her against another presidential candidate I didn't like in 2008 because she was then the lessor of two evils, since then, her actions have removed the "lessor" part of the equation. If Senator Sanders had not run in this election I would have likely never even considered voting for the Democratic presidential candidate in 2016 at all. My only contributions to political threads this campaign would have probably been about the need to assure that we all vote for and elect progressive Senators.
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You really need to consider you are caving to the undue influence of a false narrative about Clinton.
 
Trakar said:
We've been through this before and you tended to handwave it away by agreeing with her positions (just because it seems like a good idea to you doesn't mean that it isn't a traditionally conservative/rightward direction from typical progressive positions and constructs).
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Objective analysis shows that Hillary is to the left of Obama, so your 'slide to the right' is a fantasy.

Hillary Clinton on the Issues

FactCheck: Ranked 16th most liberal in Senate. (Feb 2008)
Voted with Democratic Party 96.7% of 304 votes. (Sep 2007)

International trade treaties:
I absorbed new info and changed my mind to oppose TPP. (Oct 2015)
TPP must produce jobs, raise wages, & protect security. (Apr 2015)
Global trading system isn't up to standards of fairness. (Jun 2014)
China benefits from WTO and should play by WTO rules. (Jun 2014)
Though Bill supported it, Hillary opposed NAFTA. (Oct 2007)
Voted against CAFTA despite Bill Clinton’s pushing NAFTA. (Oct 2005)

military adventurism:
Balance lower military & higher diplomacy budget. (Jun 2014)
Smart power: combine civil society & traditional diplomacy. (May 2014)
Would use very vigorous and bipartisan diplomacy. (Feb 2008)
Dems believe in fighting terror with cooperation. (Jun 2006)
Iraq war vote was meant to be used as coercive diplomacy. (Jan 2008)
No troop surge: no military escalation in Iraq. (Jan 2007)
Deploy UN multinational peacekeeping force in Darfur. (Jul 2007)
Require Congress' approval before military action in Iran. (Oct 2007)

Corporatocracy:
Reverse gun manufacturer immunity; let them get sued. (Nov 2015)
Investigate "shadow banks" and break up big banks. (Oct 2015)
World Bank should impose rules on sovereign wealth funds. (Jan 2008)
Enough with corporate welfare; enough with golden parachutes. (Jun 2007)
End no-bid contracts, end revolving door in government. (Aug 2007)
Cut gov’t contractors and end privatization of government. (Feb 2007)
Businesses play social role in US; gov’t oversight required. (Sep 1996)

Oligarchy:
Consider Constitutional Amendment against Citizen's United. (Jul 2014)
Fight obstacles to voting disguised as election fraud claims. (Aug 2013)
Stand for public financing and getting money out of politics. (Jan 2008)
Right to vote is precious & needs protection. (Sep 2005)
Soft money ban & independent ad ban for Senate campaign. (Feb 2000)

energy policy:
Take opportunity of climate change to raise our economy. (Oct 2015)
Get tough with energy speculators and with OPEC cartel. (May 2008)
Investigate gas price manipulation; add windfall profits tax. (Apr 2008)
Investigate & move toward energy efficiency and conservation. (Oct 2007)
Invest in alternative energy; jobs that won’t be outsourced. (Aug 2007)
End Big Oil tax break.(Jul 2007)
Remove energy dependence on countries who would harm us. (Jun 2006)
Need to move toward energy efficiency and conservation. (Jan 2006)
Set goal of 25% renewable energy by 2025. (Jan 2007)
 
Roger Ramjets said:
Objective analysis shows that Hillary is to the left of Obama, so your 'slide to the right' is a fantasy.

Hillary Clinton on the Issues

FactCheck: Ranked 16th most liberal in Senate. (Feb 2008)
Voted with Democratic Party 96.7% of 304 votes. (Sep 2007)

International trade treaties:
I absorbed new info and changed my mind to oppose TPP. (Oct 2015)
TPP must produce jobs, raise wages, & protect security. (Apr 2015)
Global trading system isn't up to standards of fairness. (Jun 2014)
China benefits from WTO and should play by WTO rules. (Jun 2014)
Though Bill supported it, Hillary opposed NAFTA. (Oct 2007)
Voted against CAFTA despite Bill Clinton’s pushing NAFTA. (Oct 2005)

military adventurism:
Balance lower military & higher diplomacy budget. (Jun 2014)
Smart power: combine civil society & traditional diplomacy. (May 2014)
Would use very vigorous and bipartisan diplomacy. (Feb 2008)
Dems believe in fighting terror with cooperation. (Jun 2006)
Iraq war vote was meant to be used as coercive diplomacy. (Jan 2008)
No troop surge: no military escalation in Iraq. (Jan 2007)
Deploy UN multinational peacekeeping force in Darfur. (Jul 2007)
Require Congress' approval before military action in Iran. (Oct 2007)

Corporatocracy:
Reverse gun manufacturer immunity; let them get sued. (Nov 2015)
Investigate "shadow banks" and break up big banks. (Oct 2015)
World Bank should impose rules on sovereign wealth funds. (Jan 2008)
Enough with corporate welfare; enough with golden parachutes. (Jun 2007)
End no-bid contracts, end revolving door in government. (Aug 2007)
Cut gov’t contractors and end privatization of government. (Feb 2007)
Businesses play social role in US; gov’t oversight required. (Sep 1996)

Oligarchy:
Consider Constitutional Amendment against Citizen's United. (Jul 2014)
Fight obstacles to voting disguised as election fraud claims. (Aug 2013)
Stand for public financing and getting money out of politics. (Jan 2008)
Right to vote is precious & needs protection. (Sep 2005)
Soft money ban & independent ad ban for Senate campaign. (Feb 2000)

energy policy:
Take opportunity of climate change to raise our economy. (Oct 2015)
Get tough with energy speculators and with OPEC cartel. (May 2008)
Investigate gas price manipulation; add windfall profits tax. (Apr 2008)
Investigate & move toward energy efficiency and conservation. (Oct 2007)
Invest in alternative energy; jobs that won’t be outsourced. (Aug 2007)
End Big Oil tax break.(Jul 2007)
Remove energy dependence on countries who would harm us. (Jun 2006)
Need to move toward energy efficiency and conservation. (Jan 2006)
Set goal of 25% renewable energy by 2025. (Jan 2007)
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Changing your mind because Democratic voters won't vote for you if you don't change the words you use to describe your position (at least until after you are elected to office) does not equate to a change of understandings and beliefs so much as a change in the strategy she is using to get elected.
 
Trakar said:
Trump really doesn't scare most people as much as he seemingly does establishment Republicans and establishment DNC Hillary supporters,...for some reason. I personally don't agree with his idiocy but he's more Reagan crazy (without the California governorship to help him learn to hide it) than Cruz crazy. If Cruz was the GOP nominee I couldn't be as cavalier about not ever being able to vote for Hillary.
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Gibberish of a high order. Besides that you generate labels at a rate that dwarfs an industrial label printer, your application of said labels is often nonsensical.
 
Trakar said:
Changing your mind because Democratic voters won't vote for you if you don't change the words you use to describe your position (at least until after you are elected to office) does not equate to a change of understandings and beliefs so much as a change in the strategy she is using to get elected.
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Come on Trakar, be honest. Sanders was against gay marriage and only voted against DOMA because he was pro-states rights. In his own state he supported civil unions only. Sanders was against gun controls until Clinton pointed it out then he modified his position. Sanders was pro-corporate subsidies for the corn industry under the false cover of claiming it was about environmentalism when it was more likely pandering for the Iowa vote.

Stop with the double standard and just be honest. You can be pro-Sanders without falsely demonizing Clinton.
 
Travis said:
It's very weird. I'm a Bernie supporter but I also like Hillary and just can't wrap my head around this bizarre venom some have for her.

Continuation of this thread.
Posted By: zooterkin
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Not necessarily directed at you, Travis, but I see a huge difference in political leanings depending on age.

I'm 48 and I remember Bill and Hillary very well. I've watched them over the years and have come to view them as power hungry scumbags who aren't afraid to show it. My opinion.

People that are younger just can't fathom the hatred for Hillary because they didn't see as much of this as people who are older.

The same goes for lack of concern over privacy. Younger people aren't nearly as concerned over privacy, in general, as are older folk. Do they still teach poli-sci in high school? Are students reading Orwell?

This is all just my opinion and I'm generalizing. From my side, I can't fathom how anyone could even entertain the idea of voting for any Clinton ever again. It boggles the mind, save for the explanation I've provided.
 
mgidm86 said:
... From my side, I can't fathom how anyone could even entertain the idea of voting for any Clinton ever again. It boggles the mind, save for the explanation I've provided.
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People who stop at the headlines and never look at the facts see the Clintons as bad people. Those of us that look at the actual details beg to differ.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Bull! It's the narrative and you are ignoring evidence to the contrary posted in this very thread.
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I'm not ignoring the quotes, or the votes, I just don't see these selected examples as accurately reflective the full breadth and volume of Hillary's statements and actions over the last 4-5 decades of her life, yet alone any indication of her actions were she to be elected to higher office.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Come on Trakar, be honest. Sanders was against gay marriage and only voted against DOMA because he was pro-states rights. In his own state he supported civil unions only. Sanders was against gun controls until Clinton pointed it out then he modified his position. Sanders was pro-corporate subsidies for the corn industry under the false cover of claiming it was about environmentalism when it was more likely pandering for the Iowa vote.

Stop with the double standard and just be honest. You can be pro-Sanders without falsely demonizing Clinton.
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You are free to follow the narrative that makes it easier for you to vote for and support Hillary if you like, but it does not accurately reflect my motivations or actions,

If Hillary were to adopt Sanders' policies in full, and I could trust her to earnestly fight to promote and pass them, I would easily support her candidacy. As I don't trust her to even fight for the half-step compromise policies she has adopted over the last year trying to co-opt the Democratic left, however, if Sanders is not the Democratic nominee, I won't be voting for the Democratic nominee for president this year.
 
mgidm86 said:
People that are younger just can't fathom the hatred for Hillary because they didn't see as much of this as people who are older.
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Hmm, I'm in my mid 40s, I've seen plenty of both Hillary and Bill, and I can't fathom the hatred for them either.
 
Trakar said:
I'm not ignoring the quotes, or the votes, I just don't see these selected examples as accurately reflective the full breadth and volume of Hillary's statements and actions over the last 4-5 decades of her life, yet alone any indication of her actions were she to be elected to higher office.
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I'm not talking about selected examples/samples. I'm talking about the whole picture. For example, this chart has been cited. Both Clintons are higher on the truthful statements chart than Sanders. And the article cited, If You're Liberal and You Think Hillary Clinton Is Corrupt and Untrustworthy, You're Rewarding 25 Years of GOP Smears, is extensively detailed covering false accusation after false accusation.

What is it about Clinton except all those false accusations that makes her so evil? It's ludicrous!
 
Seismosaurus said:
Hmm, I'm in my mid 40s, I've seen plenty of both Hillary and Bill, and I can't fathom the hatred for them either.
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Because for the last 25 years the media and GOP have been throwing mud and as they say, throw enough and some of it sticks.

It's funny watching the mindset though...

I don't trust her because she lies and so what she says and what she believes are different, and I know this because she's a lair who says things she doesn't believe.
 
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