Hillary Clinton is Done: part 2

[Travis]

Can't see a word I disagree with.

I do not support Sanders because I think he is an amazingly special individual, I support Sanders' Policies and trust that he would willingly and eagerly fight to realize these policies and even if he couldn't get them passed, he wouldn't trade them away for opposing compromises that were worse than doing nothing.

As for Hillary, I don't think she's ever seen a conservative economic plan or a neoconservative foreign policy where she could not find a lot to like.

I have yet to see Hillary propose to end all federal support for public transportation projects.

I have yet to see Hillary propose defunding all federal research into climate change.

I have yet to see Hillary propose to dissolve the FDA.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will dissolve the EPA.

I have yet to see Hillary propose ending fiat money.

I have yet to see Hillary propose a flat tax.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will do away with the IRS.

I have yet to see Hillary support allowing oil drilling in federal wildlife sanctuaries.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will sell off national parks to the highest bidder.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will end all subsidies to new green energy programs.

Actually, it would be easier if you would just list what conservative economic policies you think she does support. Then it might be instructive to weigh them against the almost uncountable ones she demonstrably does not support.

Out of curiosity, when did you start becoming concerned about GS' money in politics?

I find it so weird that any association with Goldman Sachs is so poisonous. It's a huge company that does many things.

To hear the way some people talk about it you would think every dollar they spend on candidates comes with a picture attached of a baby sloth they intend to kill for the evulz.

Elf Grinder got the hammer dropped on him by the mods about three months ago.
TO be fair, most of the Anti Hilary voices we have been hearing from lately have been those on the Left who think Hilary is way too moderate....and odd that they end up often sounding like the right wing Hilary haters.

It's very weird. I'm a Bernie supporter but I also like Hillary and just can't wrap my head around this bizarre venom some have for her.

Continuation of this thread.

Posted By: zooterkin

 

[Trakar]

I have yet to see Hillary propose to end all federal support for public transportation projects.

I have yet to see Hillary propose defunding all federal research into climate change.

I have yet to see Hillary propose to dissolve the FDA.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will dissolve the EPA.

I have yet to see Hillary propose ending fiat money.

I have yet to see Hillary propose a flat tax.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will do away with the IRS.

I have yet to see Hillary support allowing oil drilling in federal wildlife sanctuaries.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will sell off national parks to the highest bidder.

I have yet to see Hillary say she will end all subsidies to new green energy programs.

Actually, it would be easier if you would just list what conservative economic policies you think she does support. Then it might be instructive to weigh them against the almost uncountable ones she demonstrably does not support.



I find it so weird that any association with Goldman Sachs is so poisonous. It's a huge company that does many things.

To hear the way some people talk about it you would think every dollar they spend on candidates comes with a picture attached of a baby sloth they intend to kill for the evulz.



It's very weird. I'm a Bernie supporter but I also like Hillary and just can't wrap my head around this bizarre venom some have for her.

A much slower slide right is still losing ground, not a path forward.

 

[bruto]

A much slower slide right is still losing ground, not a path forward.

I would have thought the question in this little exchange is not whether or not Hillary is too far right for you, or any number of other qualities Hillary has or has not. Nor is it whether Travis is right about any of a number of things. Do not fall into the same trap as some of the most conservative folks around here of never acknowledging hyperbole. The fact, which Travis notes, is that even if Hillary is way too conservative for many tastes, and even if her core values are a moving target, she has certainly not espoused every conservative idea in the book.

I too find it odd that so many people here are so polarized, and that being a Bernie supporter (I am too, of course, because I think Bernie holds values that I like, and because I think he's a more effective politician than some believe, and because I think as long as we can we should support people who hold values we like rather than to count the seats left on the bandwagon), but I do not see why that requires that one despise Hillary.

 

[Tony Stark]

"delusional individuals." Say, we have a "skeptic" posting.



Three? I see two (this one and "hillary indicted") which has been inactive for a couple of days (and the leading poster was "bernie supporter" and fanatical shillary, Tony Stark)

Unlike you, I voted for Bernie. As I proved.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

 

[Belz...]

Unlike you, I voted for Bernie. As I proved.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

16.5 seems to think that if you vote for Sanders then you must believe that he'll win. Apparently if you think Hillary will win anyway, you're wasting your vote away by not voting with the crowd. Or something.

 

[wareyin]

16.5 seems to think that if you vote for Sanders then you must believe that he'll win. Apparently if you think Hillary will win anyway, you're wasting your vote away by not voting with the crowd. Or something.

I think it's more along the lines of Karl Rove: if enough Republicans pretend to support Sanders, they can have the easier candidate to run against. As Rove (and other conservatives) are only pretending to support Sanders, they are primed to believe that everyone else claiming to support Sanders is also only pretending.

 

[Tero]

You could vote for Bernie to send her a message: more socialism! Bernie has been pulling her left the whole time.

No Bernie suppoer will come and vote for Trump or Cruz. They will vote for Hillary in Nov or stay home.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I have yet to see Hillary propose...

Facts are irrelevant, it's the narrative that counts.

I find it so weird that any association with Goldman Sachs is so poisonous.

Before 2009 many people would have agreed with you. But now we know that all banks are evil. Goldman Sachs are at the top of that list because they are the most evil of all, and anyone who didn't disassociate from them before the crash was obviously in on it.

They say hindsight is always 20-20 and nobody could have known just how evil they were, but this simply isn't true. The signs were there for all to see. here are some blatant examples:-

Goldman Sachs:

During 2001-2009, the Goldman Sachs Global Leaders Program (GSGLP) identified 1,050 exceptional undergraduate students from 100 participating universities and colleges around the globe, awarded them "Global Leaders" in recognition of their academic excellence and leadership potential. Global Leaders study a diverse range of fields from economics to medical science.

In November 2007, Goldman Sachs established a donor advised fund called Goldman Sachs Gives that donates to charitable organizations around the world, while increasing their maximum employee donation match to $20,000. The firm's Community TeamWorks is an annual, global volunteering initiative that in 2007 gave over 20,000 Goldman employees a day off work from May through August to volunteer in a team-based project organized with a local nonprofit organization.

Goldman Sachs has received favorable press coverage for conducting business and implementing internal policies related to reversing global climate change.

The company also has been on Fortune Magazine's 100 Best Companies to Work For list since the list was launched in 1998

And as if that wasn't bad enough,

In March 2008, Goldman launched the 10,000 Women initiative to train 10,000 women from predominantly developing countries in business and management

Here is the smoking gun, direct evidence of Hillary's evil influence! Foreign women being turned into evil banksters! No doubt the goal was for them to infiltrate the US banking system and cause a financial meltdown - and it worked!!!

It's very weird. I'm a Bernie supporter but I also like Hillary and just can't wrap my head around this bizarre venom some have for her.

They are victims of a very effective right wing smear campaign.

If You're Liberal and You Think Hillary Clinton Is Corrupt and Untrustworthy, You're Rewarding 25 Years of GOP Smears

But it's nothing personal. Hillary was targeted for one reason only - she's a Democrat.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

A much slower slide right is still losing ground, not a path forward.

In 2000 we got Bush. In 2009 we moved left with Obama. Hillary is to the left of Obama.

But don't let facts get in the way of your narrative. Support Bernie, split the democrat vote and see what a real slide right looks like. Trump for President!

 

[uke2se]

If You're Liberal and You Think Hillary Clinton Is Corrupt and Untrustworthy, You're Rewarding 25 Years of GOP Smears

That's a very good article. I don't think that the people who need to read it will, or that if they do that they will take anything from it other than "OMG SHILLARIES!!!11!", but here's hoping.

 

[The Big Dog]

That's a very good article. I don't think that the people who need to read it will, or that if they do that they will take anything from it other than "OMG SHILLARIES!!!11!", but here's hoping.

Yeah, Chez is a well known screamer and simpering Shillary who despises Bernie with the white hot passion of a thousand suns..

May I rebut?

The Problem With Hillary, Chez, Is I Don't Vote Republican

 

[dudalb]

Almost all of the Bernie supporters will vote for Hilary in November for one reason: Trump.
If it was another Mainstream GOP candidate like McCain or Romney I could see them sitting this one out, but sheer fear of what Trump would do as President will bring the Bernities to the polls in November.

 

[Maya22]

Almost all of the Bernie supporters will vote for Hilary in November for one reason: Trump.
If it was another Mainstream GOP candidate like McCain or Romney I could see them sitting this one out, but sheer fear of what Trump would do as President will bring the Bernities to the polls in November.

I believe that you are correct. A few of them might choose to vote for Jill Stein, though.

 

[Trakar]

I doubt anything I say will convince you that I am a Bernie supporter. So I'll leave that alone.

But, what strawmen? Everything I listed is or was a part of a mainstream conservative politicians policy goals in recent years. In fact I just listened to Ted Cruz promise to do away with business regulations!

Demonstrate this slide to the right. I mean don't just say there is actually demonstrate that there is a slide to the right. Give me some evidence.

We've been through this before and you tended to handwave it away by agreeing with her positions (just because it seems like a good idea to you doesn't mean that it isn't a traditionally conservative/rightward direction from typical progressive positions and constructs).

So which do you want to talk about:

International trade treaties

military adventurism

Corporatocracy

Oligarchy

all of the above energy policy

there are more internally, and globally...

 

[zooterkin]

Thread has been split, and is being taken off moderated status.

Please keep to the thread topic, and lay off the bickering.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

 

[TheL8Elvis]

IF she did allow material that even she should have known was sensitive on a server that I would testify in court was vulnerable (even without seeing it, given the time and the now-known APTs) then she is indeed in serious legal trouble. Supposedly some of this material was of a nature to reveal sources or methods. There is no more damaging disclosure possible.

Oh, the details of the server I am privy to. Because I know that class of server and what zero day defects were yet to be revealed in it. That's one of the things on my CV.

Hmmm...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/0...how-no-evidence-of-hacking.html?_r=1&referer=

WASHINGTON — A former aide to Hillary Clinton has turned over to the F.B.I. computer security logs from Mrs. Clinton’s private server, records that showed no evidence of foreign hacking, according to people close to a federal investigation into Mrs. Clinton’s emails.

 

[Trakar]

I would have thought the question in this little exchange is not whether or not Hillary is too far right for you, or any number of other qualities Hillary has or has not. Nor is it whether Travis is right about any of a number of things. Do not fall into the same trap as some of the most conservative folks around here of never acknowledging hyperbole. The fact, which Travis notes, is that even if Hillary is way too conservative for many tastes, and even if her core values are a moving target, she has certainly not espoused every conservative idea in the book.

I too find it odd that so many people here are so polarized, and that being a Bernie supporter (I am too, of course, because I think Bernie holds values that I like, and because I think he's a more effective politician than some believe, and because I think as long as we can we should support people who hold values we like rather than to count the seats left on the bandwagon), but I do not see why that requires that one despise Hillary.

I don't disagree with you. However, there seems to be a primary misunderstanding here. I don't dislike Hillary because I like Bernie. My Dislike of Hillary goes back a long time. I supported her against another presidential candidate I didn't like in 2008 because she was then the lessor of two evils, since then, her actions have removed the "lessor" part of the equation. If Senator Sanders had not run in this election I would have likely never even considered voting for the Democratic presidential candidate in 2016 at all. My only contributions to political threads this campaign would have probably been about the need to assure that we all vote for and elect progressive Senators.

 

[beren]

Yeah, Chez is a well known screamer and simpering Shillary who despises Bernie with the white hot passion of a thousand suns..

May I rebut?

The Problem With Hillary, Chez, Is I Don't Vote Republican

Let's see.

From the first one

There are reasons you may choose not to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016, but one would hope they're policy issues rather than problems with her personality

From the second

Those are 25 pretty good reasons why we Democrats don't vote for Republicans, don't you think?

So why would we vote for Hillary Clinton, the Rockefeller Republican who exemplifies every one of those 25 statements?

Sounds like policy reasons to me.
The second is rebutting a point the first want really making.

 

[Trakar]

In 2000 we got Bush. In 2009 we moved left with Obama. Hillary is to the left of Obama.

But don't let facts get in the way of your narrative. Support Bernie, split the democrat vote and see what a real slide right looks like. Trump for President!

Obama did not shift us to the left, He basically left us where we were and continued the more gradual incremental shift to the right in many key areas that were along the same path that Bush had been dragging us along for the last eight years. A path rightward that Bill Clinton's triangulation started the Democratic party on eight years before Bush stole the presidency. Even the ACA is a warmed over version of the Republican corporate welfare for the Health insurance industry plan proposed against Hillary care in the '90s.

Hillary talked the left of Obama talk in 2008, but as soon as she got the chance she proved that she was to the right of Obama and wants the chance to prove that she can work to find middle ground with those who are even further to the right in the Republican party to demonstrate her bipartisanship. A problem that enamored and was the focus of Obama when he first entered the White House, and which was just as much of a mistake. We don't want or need a president who is going to work out a negotiated compromise with the crazy people. We need a good strongly progressive spokesman in the Bully pulpit who will spend the next eight years travelling the nation electing progressives, properly defining from a progressive understanding the problems that we face and promoting progressive policy solutions to our nation's problems.

 

[Trakar]

Almost all of the Bernie supporters will vote for Hilary in November for one reason: Trump.
If it was another Mainstream GOP candidate like McCain or Romney I could see them sitting this one out, but sheer fear of what Trump would do as President will bring the Bernities to the polls in November.

Trump really doesn't scare most people as much as he seemingly does establishment Republicans and establishment DNC Hillary supporters,...for some reason. I personally don't agree with his idiocy but he's more Reagan crazy (without the California governorship to help him learn to hide it) than Cruz crazy. If Cruz was the GOP nominee I couldn't be as cavalier about not ever being able to vote for Hillary.