High school student suspended, reinstated after refusing to recite the Pledge

[Gravy]

The Pledge, OTOH, does ask one to take sides. It's a loyalty oath to flag and country. I think reciting it in schools are a great way to teach citizenship.

I think it could be a part of learning about citizenship, but its meaning has to be taught. In the hundreds of times I had to recite the Pledge as a youngster, not once did a teacher untangle its convoluted language.* It should have been obvious that its meaning was impenetrable to us seven-year-olds because so many kids said, "I pledge of allegiance...."** No one explained what allegiance or republic or indivisible or liberty or justice meant. I had no idea of what would some day be expected of me as a citizen beyond mouthing those words. By the time I was old enough to understand the language and the concepts, I was far beyond caring about the Pledge itself. To the teachers it was merely a formality. To me it was just like the nonsense I had to recite in church, and since I never believed in God, that aspect of the Pledge was also lost on me.

I suppose the Pledge may be a useful tool for teachers if it gets the kids to be focused, "on the same page," and obedient before lessons start.


* "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

** Likewise, while it was explained to us what event the Star-Spangled Banner was describing, the language was never broken down for us. I'd bet that a large percentage of Americans have no idea exactly what is happening in that song (poem), which is why they have trouble remembering the words or putting them in the right order.

 

[Travis]

When I was in high school one of my best friends was a Jehova's Witness and he never recited the pledge and was never given any grief about it even by some of our uber patriotic teachers.

Personally I wonder why the damned thing has to be said again every day. If I had it to do over again I would recite the pledge on the first day of school and then refuse every day after citing the irrational redundancy of such an act as my reason.

 

[Beerina]

We went through this crap back in 1969 when I was in highschool. It finally fell out that students didn't have to say the pledge if they didn't want to - or stand or anything - just like a human being should able to.

That's what I was thinking. This has long since been resolved by the Supreme Court.

When I was in 4th grade, in 1976, we had a Jehovah's Witness kid who would stand, but not recite the pledge. Nobody cared. I asked him why once, and he said something like, "We don't believe in pledges."

As I was reading this new story, I imagined the girl, when being suspended, kept thinking "Cha-CHING! Cha-CHING!"

 

[fuelair]

Actually, the only potential for a teen in school having an actual problem for not saying the pledge would come IF they wanted to work for certain government agencies where security checks were made (real ones) prior to employment in their future. And I would assume that the brother who made the statement quoted above either only made it in safe private conversation he had no plans for that type of job.
Note, that has no bearing on my opinions on the pledge and related, just noting points that might be of interest.

 

[Spindrift]

The Pledge, OTOH, does ask one to take sides. It's a loyalty oath to flag and country. I think reciting it in schools are a great way to teach citizenship. I can also understand how the phrase "under God" can be bothersome.

How does taking a loyalty oath to a piece of cloth teach citizenship?

Repitition and recitation does nothing to convey meaning. If they really wanted the Pledge to mean something it would not be done on a daily basis where the kids just drone it out.

Why should anyone have to declare their loyalty? In this day and age, do you think anyone who was disloyal would hesitate at saying the pledge? I'll bet you that guy who just got caught spying for the Israeli's said the pledge every day in school.

 

[linusrichard]

I say scrap the whole thing. There are things you can do to make it better. For example, streamline the language, get rid of "under God," get rid of the flag part, (how about "I pledge my loyalty to the United States, one indivisible Republic, with liberty and justice for all"?), and make the teachers, principals, and administrators aware of the fact that it is strictly voluntary. (Standing should be strictly voluntary too.)

But none of that eliminates the underlying issue that, in what is supposedly the freest and greatest nation on earth (and there's a part of me that still tries to believe it!), we're asking children to swear a loyalty oath. We should be better than that. We need to be better than that.

It's creepy, it's borderline fascist, and it ought to stop. Wishful thinking, of course, but I'm allowed to wishfully think.

 

[Fnord]

Linusrichard,

I grew up in Grand Ledge, so I'm familiar with the kind of fascism you alluded to. There was a kid in my grade school who one day refused to recite the pledge. The teacher brought him up in front of the class and asked him "Why do you hate America? Are you some kinda atheist? A commie? What?"

The next day, the kid gave a nazi salute to the flag while reciting the pledge. Nobody bothered him after that.

 

[articulett]

Jehovah's Witnesses cannot "pledge alleigance" to anything but Jehovah.

The School I teach at doesn't say the Pledge...

But an atheist was discriminated against for not standing for the pledge at another school:

http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/02/15/atheist-kicked-out-of-class-for-not-standing-during-pledge.htm

 

[Dragoonster]

The Star Spangled Banner is nothing at all like the pledge. Neither are - at their heart - a patriotic pissing contest. The former recounts - first-hand - the naval bombardment of Ft. McHenry using a specific garrison flag as an allegory for a republic and its aspirations at the occasion of its coming of age. It does not require one necessarily to take sides and could be as inspiring to a British subject as Rule, Britannia! can be for this American citizen.

The Pledge, OTOH, does ask one to take sides. It's a loyalty oath to flag and country. I think reciting it in schools are a great way to teach citizenship. I can also understand how the phrase "under God" can be bothersome.

The entire notion can be troublesome, and equally so for both of them. No matter their histories, whenever they've been done they bear with it tremendous peer pressure, and refusal to partake does often carry with it prejudice based on a perceived lack of patriotism.

In school I'd recite the pledge but mumble the words a bit. The Star-Spangled Banner was worse for me. Maybe it was the sheer numbers of the others doing it, but at sports contests I'd feel very uncomfortable. And many, many times refused to put my hand on my heart, or even stand up. I'd get very dirty looks, people actually motioning me to stand or telling me to. Luckily no fights broke out, but there was a good deal of tension.

I'll be patriotic in my own time in my own ways. And I am very patriotic. To me the issue isn't about a/theism or history, it's about the cult-like indoctrination. It's not at all a way to "teach" citizenship. It's a way to force nationalism via overbearing pyschological pressure. (and rote)

 

[MarkCorrigan]

To me the issue isn't about a/theism or history, it's about the cult-like indoctrination. It's not at all a way to "teach" citizenship. It's a way to force nationalism via overbearing pyschological pressure. (and rote)

Quoted because it's damn well perfect for what I think of the pledge.

 

[linusrichard]

Linusrichard,

I grew up in Grand Ledge

Waverly here! Small world!

, so I'm familiar with the kind of fascism you alluded to. There was a kid in my grade school who one day refused to recite the pledge. The teacher brought him up in front of the class and asked him "Why do you hate America? Are you some kinda atheist? A commie? What?"

The next day, the kid gave a nazi salute to the flag while reciting the pledge. Nobody bothered him after that.

Very nice.

My stats teacher would yell at me to stand up during the pledge every week, and every week I sat and ignored him. Once the pledge was over, class continued as if nothing had happened. He had me as his TA the following semester, so I can't imagine he was too offended. I'm guessing he didn't care if I stood or not, but felt like he had some obligation to try to get me to...

 

[Checkmite]

I went to elementary school on a military base; of course we said the pledge every morning, right after the Banner was played over the speakers. When I moved up to Ohio, I went to civilian schools, and they didn't do that. I practically never heard the pledge again until my junior year of high school, when for some spontaneous reason they decided to have a student recite it over the speakers right before the normal announcements every day. "Participation" was strictly voluntary - this was made clear to everyone at the onset - and pretty much nobody in the entire school stood up and said the pledge, except for the JROTC students on Wednesday (the day they wore their uniforms), because they had to. And me.

 

[The Fool]

When I was a child the national anthem (god save the queen) was played in thaetres before movies. We all used to stand. Later in life I made another pledge to protect my head of state as well as her heirs and successors. This always made me wonder what I would have done if my Prime minister and my head of state were pointing at each other sayimg "shoot them".

as it turns out I only ever fought for General ky, a Vietnamese coup leader. But he was still a goodie...I'm no commie....

 

[Wildy]

In the present day, one almost wonders what kind of salute one should make while reciting this "pledge".

You guys could always re-adopt the Bellamy salute. You won't look like Nazis, honest.

The Pledge, OTOH, does ask one to take sides. It's a loyalty oath to flag and country. I think reciting it in schools are a great way to teach citizenship.

Really? Well you should try an Australian civics class.

"Alright we're going to learn about Australian Values today.

Mateship, ANZACS, a fair go and something else.

Ok the National Anthem you don't need to worry about, the Government says that you are to learn the following though:

'Australians all let us rejoice for we are young and free. Warble on the next line but remember the word "girt" at the end of the fourth one.

Congratulations you have not finished your civics class, oh and you have to vote or you'll get a fine."

Or in Australian:

"Orlrite,we'regonnalearn'bout'Stryanvehluest'dee.

Moitship, ANZACs, fairgo, indsumthinelse.

'K. Thenitionelenthemyadon'tneedtawory'bout, theguvmentwontsyatalernthafollowinthough:

'Oztrayansallletusrejoiceforweareyoungandfree'

Worbleonthanixtloinebutremembathawrd "girt" atthaendofthaforthone

Congratsya'vefinishedyacivicsclasss, ohandya'avetavoteoryagitafoine"

I'm honest here. The citizenship test asks potential new citizens what the first line of our national anthem is. That's half of what most Australians know.

From the Australian thread in "humor":

Australians all let us rejoice For weare mnya nya e.
Wigodensoi adwelworwoil owromis GIRT ie
Owrrands raraoun rinratursrits
rofutyrirare
Inistryage
Etevyage
Adan Osraya air
Inoyrurainsrenretusring
Adance Osraya air

 

[The Fool]

You guys could always re-adopt the Bellamy salute. You won't look like Nazis, honest.



Really? Well you should try an Australian civics class.

"Alright we're going to learn about Australian Values today.

Mateship, ANZACS, a fair go and something else.

Ok the National Anthem you don't need to worry about, the Government says that you are to learn the following though:

'Australians all let us rejoice for we are young and free. Warble on the next line but remember the word "girt" at the end of the fourth one.

Congratulations you have not finished your civics class, oh and you have to vote or you'll get a fine."

Or in Australian:

"Orlrite,we'regonnalearn'bout'Stryanvehluest'dee.

Moitship, ANZACs, fairgo, indsumthinelse.

'K. Thenitionelenthemyadon'tneedtawory'bout, theguvmentwontsyatalernthafollowinthough:

'Oztrayansallletusrejoiceforweareyoungandfree'

Worbleonthanixtloinebutremembathawrd "girt" atthaendofthaforthone

Congratsya'vefinishedyacivicsclasss, ohandya'avetavoteoryagitafoine"

I'm honest here. The citizenship test asks potential new citizens what the first line of our national anthem is. That's half of what most Australians know.

From the Australian thread in "humor":

there is absolutely nothing wrong with the word girt....it is in common usage in australia. Just yesterday I passed a comment to a co-worker that if they didn't cover thier picnic lunch they would be girt by flies.....

 

[gtc]

We had to listen to a recording of the Australian anthem every Monday morning during the school assembly but I don't remember them explaining the words. It took me years to work out that 'girt by sea' did not mean that Australia was composed of girt and positioned by the ocean.

We did, however, have to learn the school anthem and the school war cry (which was written in Swahili).

I have no idea what 'the United States supports the flag' means.