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High School Stabbings

We will have to make knives illegal immediately. There are far too many knives available on the streets.

It could happen!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/dg...-ban-on-long-kitchen-knives-to-end-stabbings/

IIRC, Edmonton (Alberta, Canada) wanted to ban knives being carried in public within the city limits. Too many stabbings down-town I guess. I'm not sure if the ban in now in force but I do know that they were serious about it.

Are there any jurisdictions in the States that ban knives???
 
That seems to be the wrong link.

That's the right link. It's about parachutes. Yes, that's what I intended to link to. I highly recommend reading it, it's quite amusing.

Not if she can't see well enough or handle recoil well enough to shoot straight.

And such a woman will be better off with a knife instead? :confused:

Yes, there will be a class of people who will not be able to use a gun effectively for self defense. But that class of people is a significantly smaller group than those who will not be able to use a knife effectively for self defense. So your statement, while literally true, is useless as an argument in this discussion.

You missed the point, which wasn't about the effectiveness of guns, but about the consequences of bad judgment.

The consequences of bad judgment with a car are potentially horrific too. The fact that a knife is less likely to hurt someone through bad judgment is merely a consequence of the same factors that make it much less effective for self defense, period. And favoring a less effective means of self defense BECAUSE it is less effective is, well, stupid.

No; my contention is that one should wait to begin defending oneself until there's an actual attack to defend oneself against, rather than simply fear that one might get attacked.

That's nice in theory, somewhat naive in practice. If you wait until someone is actually attacking you within arms length, you've waited too long.

The gun has the ability to kill an assailant at range before he can get to his assailing; but this very ability is also the ability to kill an non-assailant at range for the crime of being angry at you and gesticulating wildly. Knives don't have this ability, which means my theoretical carrying of it (or another weapon such as a baton or a sap) is much less likely to be a liability for innocent bystanders.

And they're also much less likely to successfully protect you from an attacker, for the very same reason. Again, you're basically arguing knives are better because they're less effective. That's not a compelling reason to prefer them for the task.

But perhaps I misunderstand you. Perhaps your argument is simply that you don't think people should be permitted to have weapons for self-defense, but you'll permit knives because they're not very effective for the task. That's logically coherent, at least, but it's not something I could ever agree with (nor would most Americans), and it stands in opposition to the 2nd amendment.
 
This ^

No need to ban knives but clearly the lack of a gun made a difference here.

I don't think you can say "lack" of a gun made a difference. It was more likely lack of the choice to use a gun over a knife.

With a gun of high caliber, Lopez shot at at least 19 people, he hit and wounded 16 and killed 3. That's not a high percentage of kills for shots.

Depending on where I am shot, I think I might rather be hit with a bullet than be stabbed and/or slashed--like disemboweled--by a knife. Knives can actually inflict much more extensive and nasty wounds.

These are images of a cop who tried to talk to a guy with a knife instead of shooting him. They are very graphic. You don't have to see them if you don't open the links.
http://mjm.luckygunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Knife-wounds-chest.jpg

http://www.dlsports.com/knife_danger/knife_danger_3_small.jpg

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=603534
 
Here's another fact, if I had access to the same exact knife to the kid had there could be at least a dozen things I could do with it that have nothing to do with stabbing a single living thing. Guns have no such utility.


Highlighted the lie.
 
This wouldn't have happened if the School was not a Knife Free Zone. The clear solution is to arm all teachers with knives to prevent this occurring again. (or perhaps swimming pools.)

Not really, only a fool would think to match a knife for a knife when I gun is always better.
 
Do guns have the same kind of utility?


OK so it took you one entire post to goalpost move.

First it was "guns have no utility". Zero.

Now it's "they don't have the same kinds of utility".

You wouldn't have done that because of an agenda would you?
 
I don't follow your reasoning. Does it "not count" as self-defense unless your assailant dies or something?


No what counts is if it works.

Personally if I were on a crazed rampage (please believe I am just imagining a hypothetical :D), I would stop if someone pointed a gun at me. A knife? Probably not.

Then again, I have a feeling you might have known this already and are just arguing for an agenda instead of for facts and logic.
 
like most laws restricting possession of (whatever) they haven't exactly been effective.

You might have a point there.

WEAPONS POLICY
Policy #8209
"Weapons and replicas of weapons are forbidden in any FRSD building; on any grounds of the FRSD; and in any conveyance (including private) providing transportation to or from FRSD; at any school function, activity or event whether or not held on FRSD grounds; or while the student is on his/her way to or from school."

http://p4cdn1static.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_76562/File/student handbook 13-14.pdf

It's right there in the school district's student handbook. I don't know how the perpetrator could have missed it! In theory, it should have been impossible for the crime to have taken place.

It almost seems as if the individual formed criminal intent and willfully decided to ignore the prohibition.

Incredible!!!
 
I think he's referring to the stats about a gun in the home being much morel likely to be used against a loved one than it is to be used for defense.


That means nothing. You can say the same for knives. Baseball bats. Hammers. Anything really.

Statistics also say that the gun is going to be used for practice and for gaming 99.9% more than any violent or accidental use.

And yet you want to punish the entire class just because one kid was chewing gum.

Not very logical.
 
Are you also sticking with the arms the Founders had?


If you are implying that the founders of the United States were too dumb to realize that technology advances then there really isn't much point in even discussing the Bill of Rights with you.

For instance, the Ferguson breech loading rifle which was created in 1775. It was a decent step forward, and interesting as well.

To imply that the founders would not realize that technology would advance further just seems silly.
 
Throwing knives and stars are basically illegal in New York, as are many knife designs for whoever wanted to know about knife bans. A while back some groups in the UK wanted to make pointed kitchen knives illegal to make them safer because of how often kitchen knives were used in crime.

I can all but guarantee that the school has several of the same type of knife as was used in the attack on the grounds. Home and Careers rooms have full kitchens and of course, kitchen knives.

Obviously a knife can be a very deadly and effective weapon. So can a sharpened stick. It takes more skill and training than killing people with a gun, which has many other advantages too. This kid might have killed some if he had had a gun, or not. I haven't seen what the exact situation is, but it's possible that just killing wasn't the goal. Or that he passed up using a gun. Maybe he wanted to feel the blood. Who knows; that's speculation.

However, I think it's safe to say that the reason he didn't get stopped sooner has less to do with someone else not having a gun, or a knife, but with his choice of target. School kids, even older ones, are a soft target. My belt or a chair would be my go-to in a knife attack, unless for some reason I had a stick or a longer knife...
 
Are you also sticking with the arms the Founders had?

Like these?

The Puckle Machinegun.


The Girandoni

...fired a .46 caliber ball at a velocity similar to that of a modern .45 ACP and it had a tubular, gravity-fed magazine with a capacity of 20 balls...was the first repeating rifle of any kind to see military service. It was one of the first uses of a tubular magazine.
 
Here's a fact for you, people are more likely to survive a knife wound then [than] they are a gunshot wound. Care to share your thoughts on that?

My thoughts on this are....this isn't a fact.

Here's another fact, if I had access to the same exact knife to the kid had there could be at least a dozen things I could do with it that have nothing to do with stabbing a single living thing. Guns have no such utility. Care to share your thoughts on that?

Hunting. Competition (ex the Olympics), fun.


Here's another fact, there are vastly more knife owners then there are gun owners. I think it's safe to say it would be a rarity to come acros a single household without at least one knife in it. And yet, despite being a minority, gun ownership contributes to the vast majority of violent deaths and crime in the country. Care to share your thoughts on that?

Can you substantiate this claim empirically, with evidence perhaps?

Are gun owners a minority? I don't think they are, certainly not where I live. And yet firearm homicides are notably fewer than stabbings and bludgeonings.


Gun collecting, the only hobby which people try to justify owning an item that contributes to more deaths per year in the country than in an active war zone in the third world.

As is yours.

I think you are confused with regards to the facts surrounding gun ownership and gun collecting. :boggled:
 
I do not consider hunting immoral any more than I consider fishing as such. Yet if I was to say that a fishing rod has limited usefulness would you have the same objection?

Wait a minute. Isn't this your argument against guns? :confused:



Why yes it is.

I work two jobs and am a full-time student. I use knives in all three places, plus at home and a few other places beside for everything between opening boxes to preparing meals. Do guns have the same kind of utility?

Besides, all you have offered is anecdote. You could kill someone with one of those knives if you wanted to. Why don't you?
 
I can all but guarantee that the school has several of the same type of knife as was used in the attack on the grounds. Home and Careers rooms have full kitchens and of course, kitchen knives.

Obviously a knife can be a very deadly and effective weapon. So can a sharpened stick.

Indeed.

I thought the "no weapons" rule in the school's student handbook sounded vague. Perhaps intentionally? Are knives considered "weapons" in Pennsylvania? In Canada, a knife is legally considered to be a "weapon" only after being used as such.

OTOH, Canadian LEO's also have a catch-all that allows charges for any device that might be 'dangerous to the public' even if no specific criminal act has been committed.

Maybe the school's vague wording in the student handbook regarding weapons was intended to act as a catch-all as well...
 
That's the right link. It's about parachutes. Yes, that's what I intended to link to. I highly recommend reading it, it's quite amusing.

It's an article that was originally written, by people who don't understand the why behind medical research standards, to make fun of (argue against) complaints that alternative medicine and other unproven treatments have not been verified through double-blind placebo-based testing. The argument is that if enough people have personally attested to good results from the treatment, insisting on rigorous and standardized testing before approval is superfluous and silly. The premise itself is completely wrong (parachutes are machines intended to slow the fall of a load, not medical treatments intended to address or treat an illness or other medical condition), and the argument it's intended to make is also completely independently wrong. And while I'm not surprised that anyone else here at JREF would be familiar with the "article", I am quite surprised to see a JREFer thinking it's a good enough argument to reference in support of any topic. Likewise, I'm quite surprised that, in a topic where facts, figures, and studies are often used in support of both sides, you would actually try to imply that any positive claim, let alone one like "knives are not as effective as guns", is somehow beyond contest.

And such a woman will be better off with a knife instead? :confused:

Yes, there will be a class of people who will not be able to use a gun effectively for self defense. But that class of people is a significantly smaller group than those who will not be able to use a knife effectively for self defense. So your statement, while literally true, is useless as an argument in this discussion.

In a discussion about the generalities of knives and guns as weapons, you introduced a special situation where a knife's general advantage would disappear or be less useful. My main idea on this tangent is that a special situation can almost always be found that would rob any method's advantage, including that of guns.

The consequences of bad judgment with a car are potentially horrific too...

We're talking about self-defense weapons, as used for self-defense. The consequences that can come from unwisely using cars, caustic chemicals, sailboats, plywood, giraffes, or spaceships while operating those things as intended are irrelevant in this context.

The fact that a knife is less likely to hurt someone through bad judgment is merely a consequence of the same factors that make it much less effective for self defense, period. And favoring a less effective means of self defense BECAUSE it is less effective is, well, stupid.

You're repeating this assertion that knives are less effective, because "you have to be closer to use them", but I'm still waiting to be convinced that A = B.

That's nice in theory, somewhat naive in practice. If you wait until someone is actually attacking you within arms length, you've waited too long.

This is just another way of saying "I disagree with you". I already know you do.

And they're also much less likely to successfully protect you from an attacker, for the very same reason.

Still waiting.

Again, you're basically arguing knives are better because they're less effective. That's not a compelling reason to prefer them for the task.

No, I'm arguing that I think they're better because the worst case scenario when using a knife (or similar weapon) - I am unable to stop someone from assailing me - is in my estimation less negative than the worst case scenario when using a gun (I kill an innocent person).

But perhaps I misunderstand you. Perhaps your argument is simply that you don't think people should be permitted to have weapons for self-defense, but you'll permit knives because they're not very effective for the task.

No.
 
Spit wads. Pea shooter. Baseball bat. Golf club(a 3-iron). Darts. Blow dart gun. Jack knife. Switchblade. Bolo knife. Meat clever. Machete. Sword. Spear. Speargun. Bow & arrow. Cross bow. Blow torch. Flame thrower. Acid. Pistol. Bigger pistol. Semi-automatic pistol. BB gun. Pellet gun. Small cal rifle. Big caleb rifle. Shotgun. Assault rifle. Machine gun. Cannon. Dynamite. Nitrogycerine. C4. Grenade. Grenade launcher. Mortar. Tank. Atomic bomb. Hydrogen bomb.
Now. Which would take out the most people the fastest? Spitwads or hydrogen bomb? (Thinking)
Well, not counting these two extremes, which of the others should some school kid use next? (Oh, did i forget any ideas?)
 

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