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Higgs Boson Discovered?!

So the Sun didn't exist before the Curies were born? The natural reactors at Oklo never happened? ;)

(I know what you meant, but your wording was fairly unfortunate. Physics doesn't depend on knowledge or belief, which is one of the things that distinguishes it from, say, religion.)

Haha, nice. Yeah, by "nuclear energy" I was talking about nuclear power plants and nuclear bombs. Specifically the technology of nuclear energy. I should have worded that better. :boxedin:
 
It depends a bit on what exactly you mean by "extended or reworked". Things like supersymmetry are attempts to extend the standard model. It's just that once you've extended it that much, it's no longer the standard model, in the same way that relativity is no longer Newtonian mechanics.

I understand that, however I imagine that the mathematical algorithms and terms used to describe Newtonian mechanics are completely different to the algorithms that describe relativity. Is it not the case that the algorithms that describe "the standard model" can only be tweaked or modified so far before you need to throw them away and start with new algorithms and different terms? Otherwise isn't supersymmetry just a heavily tweaked version of the standard model?

Please excuse my ignorance here :) I just want to learn!

As with the photon and Z boson, the Higgs is its own anti-particle.

Ok. You're going to have to explain that one. My understanding is that a particle and it's anti-particle would annihilate each other and photons obviously don't annihilate each other. The concept of something being it's own anti-particle doesn't make sense given how I understand anti-matter to work. (Again, please excuse my scientific illiteracy - I'm sure this must seem an obvious question to the initiated).

When it comes to mass, that's based on a very common misunderstanding. The Higgs boson does not "give particles mass" as is often claimed; it's simply that the Higgs mechanism is part of the explanation for why particles are the mass they are. If the Higgs mechanism didn't exist, some particles would have different masses, but given that the mechanism does exist there's nothing you can do to change those masses. That would be like claiming that understanding electromagnetism should allow us to change the charge of an electron. That understanding allows us to manipulate electrons in all kinds of clever ways, but both its charge and its mass are fundamental properties that we can't do anything about.

There are other mechanisms/explanations that also contribute to the mass of particles? (I mean I understand that relativity implies that mass is dependent on velocity, but I suspect there's more to it than that?)

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but the paragraph above implies that even if we understood the Higgs perfectly, we still wouldn't necessarily understand why matter has mass? We would only understand why the masses they have are the values they are - is that correct?

As for what technologies it might enable, no-one has the slightest idea. There are much better known and more easily produced and studied particles that haven't led to any useful technology. In fact, the electron and photon are the only fundamental particles that actually have. Knowing about the others is important for our understanding of physics, and that understanding is what all our technology ultimately rests on, but no other particles have led to any technology in themselves.

I present you with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_therapy :D
 
Please note: I'm not an expert, but the below should be correct in general even if some details are off. :P

There are other mechanisms/explanations that also contribute to the mass of particles? (I mean I understand that relativity implies that mass is dependent on velocity, but I suspect there's more to it than that?)

I think it depends on what you want to call a "particle". For instance, I think you know that the mass of a Uranium atom is more than the sum total of the masses of the protons and neutrons in the nucleus, yes? Split the atom and you get two atoms of smaller mass whose sums are less than that of the uranium atom by a small amount, that deficit happens to be equal to the amount of energy released.

But what form does that energy take in the Uranium atom? It's the energy of interaction between the particles. Or perhaps put better, between the particles and the fields they produce.

The same is true in a Hydrogen atom. A certain amount of the mass of the hydrogen atom is the energy of interaction between the electron and the proton.

But you wouldn't call those particles.

How about a proton? Well, a proton is made up of quarks. The mass of a quark is determined by the Higgs mechanism, but you can't just sum up the masses of the quarks in a proton to give you the proton mass. You'll be way under. There's also the contribution from the interaction of the quarks. That part of the energy is actually much greater than the part that comes about through coupling to the Higgs field.

An electron on the other hand is, as far as we can tell, "fundamental", and as such the mass it has is all explained by the Higgs mechanism.
 
Please note: I'm not an expert, but the below should be correct in general even if some details are off. :P


I think it depends on what you want to call a "particle". For instance, I think you know that the mass of a Uranium atom is more than the sum total of the masses of the protons and neutrons in the nucleus, yes? Split the atom and you get two atoms of smaller mass whose sums are less than that of the uranium atom by a small amount, that deficit happens to be equal to the amount of energy released.

Yes, I think I have a fair understanding of nuclear decay and fission, but I had thought that the energy release/mass loss was due to matter to energy conversion? E=mc2 and all that? It made sense to me given the huge amounts of energy released by nuclear fission - even a tiny amount of matter converted to energy would be massive. If I understand the rest of your post correctly, you seem to be saying that there isn't a matter-energy conversion, it's just that the energy created by the interactions between the quarks/particles/whatever itself confers mass, and the break-up of the atom results in the energy previously locked up in interactions being released. Since the interactions are no longer happening, the atom loses mass at the same time.... is that correct?

But what form does that energy take in the Uranium atom? It's the energy of interaction between the particles. Or perhaps put better, between the particles and the fields they produce.

The same is true in a Hydrogen atom. A certain amount of the mass of the hydrogen atom is the energy of interaction between the electron and the proton.

But you wouldn't call those particles.

I think this must be above my pay-grade. I have a difficult enough time understanding exactly what "energy" actually is. Now you're saying that the energy of interaction between these "particles" has mass? :boggled:

How about a proton? Well, a proton is made up of quarks. The mass of a quark is determined by the Higgs mechanism, but you can't just sum up the masses of the quarks in a proton to give you the proton mass. You'll be way under. There's also the contribution from the interaction of the quarks. That part of the energy is actually much greater than the part that comes about through coupling to the Higgs field.

An electron on the other hand is, as far as we can tell, "fundamental", and as such the mass it has is all explained by the Higgs mechanism.

OK, so quarks have mass and the interactions between the quarks that form a proton confer additional mass? Is that right? How the hell does that work? :boggled:
 
I'd thought of describing the Standard Model's problems in more detail, but I then remembered that I'd created a thread on that subject some time ago: The Standard Model: Where are we now? - JREF Forum

Empirical problems:
  • Gravity
  • Neutrino masses
  • Matter-antimatter antisymmetry
  • Dark matter
  • Dark energy
  • Cosmic inflation
Theoretical problems:
  • Number of parameters: 19
  • Hierarchy problem: SM masses << Planck mass
  • Sources of neutrino masses: tiny Higgs couplings or very massive right-handed neutrinos?
  • Strong CP problem: how to keep QCD from violating CP without fine tuning)
  • Higgs-particle instability at high energy scales: prevented by SUSY partners (higgsinos)
  • Elementary-fermion unification: each generation fits into 2 SU(5) multiplets or 1 SO(10) multiplet without needing a lot of extra particles
  • Gauge unification: in the Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model, the QCD, weak-isospin, and weak-hypercharge interaction strengths converge on one value at about 2*10^(16) GeV, not much less than the Planck mass
 
I understand that, however I imagine that the mathematical algorithms and terms used to describe Newtonian mechanics are completely different to the algorithms that describe relativity. Is it not the case that the algorithms that describe "the standard model" can only be tweaked or modified so far before you need to throw them away and start with new algorithms and different terms? Otherwise isn't supersymmetry just a heavily tweaked version of the standard model?

Newtonian mechanics isn't as different from relativity as you think - if you set velocity to zero, the equations governing special relativity are identical to Newtonian mechanics. Isn't supersymmetry just a heavily tweaked version of the Standard Model? Sure. But that tweaking makes it different enough that it no longer makes sense to refer to it by the same name (at least in most cases; the Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model is close enough that it does keep the name). Some approaches, such as string theory, do pretty much throw everything out and start from scratch, but that's not the only way to come up with something new.

Ok. You're going to have to explain that one. My understanding is that a particle and it's anti-particle would annihilate each other and photons obviously don't annihilate each other. The concept of something being it's own anti-particle doesn't make sense given how I understand anti-matter to work. (Again, please excuse my scientific illiteracy - I'm sure this must seem an obvious question to the initiated).

There's a decent explanation here. In short, photons do annihilate with each other, it's just not a common event due to small collision cross-sections and other effects. The important thing with respect to the general question is that antimatter is not defined by annihilation, it's a consequence of quantum physics - the equations that predict regular matter have symmetric solutions that correspond to almost identical particles with opposite charge. For neutral particles, that means that both solutions are actually identical - the particle and antiparticle are the same thing.

It's similar to quadratic equations always having two solutions. For example, x2 = 1 has solutions of 1 and -1. x2 = 0 also has two solutions, but they're both 0. That may just seem to be a bit of meaningless nitpicking when you learn about it in maths classes, but it's important when it comes to particle physics because having photons and antiphotons both acknowledged as solutions has physical meaning even though they're the same thing.

There are other mechanisms/explanations that also contribute to the mass of particles? (I mean I understand that relativity implies that mass is dependent on velocity, but I suspect there's more to it than that?)

The Higgs mechanism was originally developed to answer the problem that without it, electroweak theory (it hadn't developed to the standard model by this point) predicted that the W and Z bosons had zero mass. But this was a problem specifically with getting the weak force involved - we could already account for the masses of things like electrons via gauge theories that didn't try to unify electromagnetism with the weak force. It's not as simple as:
Standard model without Higgs - no masses
Standard model with Higgs - everything has mass
The Higgs mechanism and its consequences are just one part of the whole puzzle. Things wouldn't work properly without it, but it's really no more fundamental or important than any other part, it just happens to be the most recently confirmed.

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but the paragraph above implies that even if we understood the Higgs perfectly, we still wouldn't necessarily understand why matter has mass? We would only understand why the masses they have are the values they are - is that correct?

Well yes, but that's not really a point I was trying to make. If anything, that's more philosophy than anything else. No theory can really answer why things are the way they are. We can describe how the universe works and what the properties of things in it are, but we can't say why they are that way rather than something else.


Note that I used the term fundamental particles. We have lots of uses for all kinds of composite particles, starting with protons and neutrons and then combining them with other things to produce pretty much everything we do. But other than electrons and photons, I'm not aware of any technology resulting from the discovery of a fundamental particle, and even in those two cases many of the uses ultimately stem from empirical testing prior to the discovery of the actual particles - we had electric lights well before we knew what was going on at the particle level, or even that there was a particle level at all.

Obviously I'm not saying particle physics is useless; that would be rather hypocritical given my job. It's just that new discoveries in particle physics do not tend to lend themselves to immediate technological use. It's been nearly a century since we last discovered a particle that has actually been used to do something practical. We've discovered a whole lot more since then, but while things like computers rely very much on the associated advances in physics, the particles themselves haven't led directly to anything.
 
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There's a decent explanation here. In short, photons do annihilate with each other, it's just not a common event due to small collision cross-sections and other effects. The important thing with respect to the general question is that antimatter is not defined by annihilation, it's a consequence of quantum physics - the equations that predict regular matter have symmetric solutions that correspond to almost identical particles with opposite charge. For neutral particles, that means that both solutions are actually identical - the particle and antiparticle are the same thing.

It's similar to quadratic equations always having two solutions. For example, x2 = 1 has solutions of 1 and -1. x2 = 0 also has two solutions, but they're both 0. That may just seem to be a bit of meaningless nitpicking when you learn about it in maths classes, but it's important when it comes to particle physics because having photons and antiphotons both acknowledged as solutions has physical meaning even though they're the same thing.

Ok, that makes sense (if anything in physics does). Cool article as well; thanks!

<Respectful snip>

Thanks Cuddles - I'm not sure I fully grok the rest of your post, so I will spend some more time digesting and reading up, but I really appreciate the effort to educate!
 
...

Obviously I'm not saying particle physics is useless; that would be rather hypocritical given my job. It's just that new discoveries in particle physics do not tend to lend themselves to immediate technological use. It's been nearly a century since we last discovered a particle that has actually been used to do something practical.
That would be the positron, right?

As in PET (positron emission tomography), for example.

We've discovered a whole lot more since then, but while things like computers rely very much on the associated advances in physics, the particles themselves haven't led directly to anything.
Isn't it more shades of grey?

For example, while there's no equivalent practical use of muons (say) in medicine or heavy industry1, their use as 'heavy electrons' in fields of science beyond fundamental particle physics is quite practical.

Another example might be practical uses of "geo-neutrinos"; a mere ~decade hence, perhaps?

True, practical uses of gluons and Z bosons (for example) do not seem to be even a gleam in the wildest of inventor's eyes yet ... ;)

1 Or not: aren't there scanners - looking for contraband or radioactive materials - which use muons?
 
Newtonian mechanics isn't as different from relativity as you think - if you set velocity to zero, the equations governing special relativity are identical to Newtonian mechanics.
Strictly speaking, one has to take the limit, and one has to be a bit careful about how one does so:
t = O(1)
x = O(ε)
v = O(ε)
kinetic energy = O(ε2)
gravitational potential = O(ε2)
etc.
Isn't supersymmetry just a heavily tweaked version of the Standard Model? Sure.
The Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model is the Standard Model with N = 1 supersymmetry added on, the simplest level of SUSY. Most of the MSSM parallels the SM, with the exception of the Higgs particle. In the Standard Model, it is one weak-isospin doublet, but in the MSSM, it must be two WIS doublets, an "up Higgs" and a "down Higgs".

SUSY is, of course, a broken symmetry, and SUSY breaking is necessary for the MSSM to have electroweak symmetry breaking. The breaking of SUSY apparently cannot happen in the MSSM itself, so it is broken in some "hidden sector" and its breaking is conveyed to the MSSM particles by some mechanism.

In the Standard Model, the Higgs particle is a complex WIS doublet, giving 4 particle modes. EWSB turns 3 of the modes into longitudinal modes of the W and Z, with the remaining one being the recently-observed Higgs particle. In the MSSM, it is two complex WIS doublets, giving 8 modes. Three of them go into the W and Z, and the remaining five split up into a charged one with charges +1 and -1 and three neutral ones. One of the neutral ones is an approximation of the Standard-Model after-EWSB Higgs particle.

EWSB also mixes the electroweak-gauge superpartners and the Higgs ones to make 4 "neutralinos" and 2 "charginos" with charges +1 and -1. The lightest neutralino is often speculated to be the dark-matter particle.
 
EWSB also mixes the electroweak-gauge superpartners and the Higgs ones to make 4 "neutralinos" and 2 "charginos" with charges +1 and -1. The lightest neutralino is often speculated to be the dark-matter particle.
What about Dark Energy? That is much more abundant even than Dark Matter. Is its "particle" likely to be some weird kind of photon?
 
What about Dark Energy? That is much more abundant even than Dark Matter. Is its "particle" likely to be some weird kind of photon?
That's even more of a mystery than dark matter. But I've seen some theoretical speculations about it called "quintessence". These speculations usually involve some scalar field because such a field can have some nonzero value without the complications that one gets for nonzero spin.

The name is from this whimsical identification:
Baryonic matter -- earth
Dark matter -- water
Neutrinos -- air
Photons -- fire
Dark energy -- aether or quintessence
 
That would be the positron, right?

As in PET (positron emission tomography), for example.


Isn't it more shades of grey?

For example, while there's no equivalent practical use of muons (say) in medicine or heavy industry1, their use as 'heavy electrons' in fields of science beyond fundamental particle physics is quite practical.

Another example might be practical uses of "geo-neutrinos"; a mere ~decade hence, perhaps?

True, practical uses of gluons and Z bosons (for example) do not seem to be even a gleam in the wildest of inventor's eyes yet ... ;)

1 Or not: aren't there scanners - looking for contraband or radioactive materials - which use muons?
The use of many of the more unstable particles just isn't as obvious. For example, W and Z bosons are both involved in the processes that are used to produce the positrons and muons used in the applications you mentioned for those particles. And particles like gluons and pions are directly involved in all forms of nuclear fusion and fission.

Obviously extremely short-lived particles that can only produced by extremely high-energy interactions, such as 2nd and 3rd generation quarks, tau particles, and the Higgs boson, aren't likely to have any direct practical applications for quite some time. But even there, stuff we have learned about the fundamental interactions from observing those exotic particles has been invaluable in a large number of practical applications that don't directly make use of those particles.
 

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