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Hezbollah: take that

a_unique_person said:
Israel has not been tolerant and restrained beyond reason. Say what you like about which side deserves what or is morally more correct, Israel has blood on it's hands too. Eg, the helicopter that attacked a bus full of civilians, including children, trying to flee the fighting in Lebanon. Palestinians summarily executed without trial.
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Ah yes -given the known bravery of Hezbulsht (bravely hiding with civilians to ahh"protect" the civilians) the Israelis' had to assume that the bus had been bravely commandeered by the Hezcrpetrs so they could bravely lead Israel away from the areas of "fighting". Didn't know they were executing w/o trial but as long as they are sure they are terrorists, fine with me.
 
a_unique_person said:
I don't expect people like Jocko will make any more claims about Israel making surgical strikes on military targets. It's a war, civilians will be targetted.
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I think we have to be careful about the language we use to discuss these matters.

We do not have any evidence (or at least that I know of) that the Israeli's are targeting civilians. They are targeting what they consider to be military targets, sometimes they will make mistakes, sometimes to reach those military targets they will have to kill civilians not associated in any way with the aims of Hezbollah but that is not the same as targeting civilians. In this conflict only Hezbollah has targeted civilians.
 
Exactly, Darat, exactly.

What I don't understand is why AUP thinks israel is doing anything wrong in. You deliberately hide behind Lebanese civilians as you deliberately bomb israel's civlians, you bear the responsiblity for civilian casualties on both sides.

Don't you agree, AUP?
 
Darat said:
We do not have any evidence (or at least that I know of) that the Israeli's are targeting civilians. They are targeting what they consider to be military targets, sometimes they will make mistakes,
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I just read a CNN article that said they have hit a Lebanese army barracks, and another outpost. Unlike the civilian casualties, these don't seem to have been mistakes.

It seems to me that they are deliberately targeting the Lebanese military. What's the justification for that?

(That's a sincere question by the way. I can't think of a good reason to do it, either politically, militarily, or morally, but I'm hoping someone more familiar with the conflict might be able to do so.)
 
Meadmaker said:
I just read a CNN article that said they have hit a Lebanese army barracks, and another outpost. Unlike the civilian casualties, these don't seem to have been mistakes.

It seems to me that they are deliberately targeting the Lebanese military. What's the justification for that?

(That's a sincere question by the way. I can't think of a good reason to do it, either politically, militarily, or morally, but I'm hoping someone more familiar with the conflict might be able to do so.)
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Hmmm...that does seem odd. Assuming that story is correct, then the only reason I can think of to do that would be to pressure the government to send the Lebanese Army down to the border like Israel has demanded in the last couple of days. As the official Lebanese response so far seems to be "No," perhaps Israel is trying to say, "Want to reconsider before we consider you the enemy as well?"

I don't know. That's mere idle speculation on my part.

AS
 
a_unique_person said:
Hezbollah are not the government, they are not the majority of the population.
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But, by forcing military actions, with the "real" government doing nothing about it (and it doesn' matter to most of us -at least who have commented - whether that is due to "real" governments' lack of power, lack of will or actual agreement with Heatscrpola) Hezblsht is the government de facto of Lebanon and must be considered as such by Israel (and me).
 
AmateurScientist said:
Hmmm...that does seem odd. Assuming that story is correct, then the only reason I can think of to do that would be to pressure the government to send the Lebanese Army down to the border like Israel has demanded in the last couple of days. As the official Lebanese response so far seems to be "No," perhaps Israel is trying to say, "Want to reconsider before we consider you the enemy as well?"

I don't know. That's mere idle speculation on my part.

AS
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That would be a silly way to "send a message". I suspect that either the report has considerable untruth, or that Hizbollah are not completely separate from the Lebanese military at all times; in that if a platoon of them show up at a military base and say we'd like to park here and borrow some of your stuff, the regular military aren't going to shoot the first round that starts the civil war, again.

After all they hide in civilian areas and keep rockets in the garden shed, why wouldn't they try to hide with the regular military?
 
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AmateurScientist said:
perhaps Israel is trying to say, "Want to reconsider before we consider you the enemy as well?"

I don't know. That's mere idle speculation on my part.

AS
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That's my idle speculation as well, but I would really like to think that's not the case. Killing someone who isn't shooting at you in order to send a message to their government seems like a very, very bad idea.


As for whether the reports are true or not, it seems likely they are, although it is possible that they were incomplete. There were two incidents. One was a military installation in the south. That could easily be mistaken identity. The other was a barracks in the north. It doesn't seem that could be either a mistake or a miss. I'd like to think there's a good explanation, but I'd sure like to hear one.

If they deliberately targeted the Lebanese army, for whatever reason, that's an act of war against Lebanon, directly. It just doesn't seem like a good plan.

I also can't come up with a good reason to bomb the Beirut airport. Is there speculation that arms are being smuggled in on commercial flights?
 
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fuelair said:
But, by forcing military actions, with the "real" government doing nothing about it (and it doesn' matter to most of us -at least who have commented - whether that is due to "real" governments' lack of power, lack of will or actual agreement with Heatscrpola) Hezblsht is the government de facto of Lebanon and must be considered as such by Israel (and me).
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This viewpoint ignores the 16-year Lebanese civil war that ended without a clear winner. The Shias were not strong enough to establish their Islamic theocracy and neither could the other sides gain ascendancy. Hizbollah rules the Shi'te areas but they don't have much to say outside them.

I don't think that it is particularly strange that the Lebanese government is not eager to start a new civil war. The last one cost probably at least 100,000 dead, possibly more.
 
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