Herbal Healing

[Ashles]

She had done several courses in herbalism, crystal healing and aromatherapy.

Well can you see why this might not be considered up there with actual science or medical training?

By grouping herbalism in with crystal healing and aromatherapy you make it sound very unscientific. If herbalism is approached that way then it will not be of any real use as little knowledge or understanding is involved.

She got her information from a report.

Well the question is what sort of a report? Report could mean anything. A scientific study? A flyer that came free with a crystal booklet?
You'd hardly trust a doctor if he was diagnosing you in his surgery from a single report (of some unspecified type), or from a course he had taken with crystal healing.

It sounds so much more healthy and natural to say 'herbs' instead of 'chemicals', but it is the chemicals that are acting on the diseases and symptoms and some understanding of this is important if you are treating people with actual medical conditions.

 

[Dr Adequate]

She got her information from a report.

Which report. What did it say? What methodology did they use? This last is crucial.

She had done several courses in herbalism

Had she done any experiments in herbalism.

crystal healing and aromatherapy.

Crystal healing, now, is just total woo-woo BS, and I say this as one who has studied it at length and in depth and read half-a-dozen books on it by enthusiasts. The fact that she's done a course in it does not fill me with confidence in her judgement. It makes me think that she'd swallow any old trash if you put a New Age glaze on it.

 

[jambo372]

She just said a scientific credited report.
I make herbalism sound unscientific by grouping it with aromatherapy and crystal healing ?
I'm not saying crystal healing is useless but I can see what you mean there, but not aromatherapy - there is evidence that chemicals in many essential oils can have beneficial effects.
Herbalism certainly isn't unscientific as we've saw from previous posts here telling how :
Aspirin
Quinine
Early antibiotics
Taxol
Opioid analgesics
Ergotamine
Digitalis drugs ... the list goes on ...
all came originally from plants.

 

[Dr Adequate]

She just said a scientific credited report.
I make herbalism sound unscientific by grouping it with aromatherapy and crystal healing ?

No, jambo, but you make your source sound uncritical by revealling that she's been suckered by crystal healing. What does she know or care of what is or isn't "scientifically credited"?

I'm not saying crystal healing is useless

Why on earth not...?

but I can see what you mean there, but not aromatherapy - there is evidence that chemicals in many essential oils can have beneficial effects.

Agreed. But are they useful taken nasally?

Herbalism certainly isn't unscientific as we've saw from previous posts here telling how :
Aspirin
Quinine
Early antibiotics
Taxol
Opioid analgesics
Ergotamine
Digitalis drugs ... the list goes on ...
all came originally from plants.

Agreed. In fact, I pointed out asprin and digitalis to you myself. But what I still haven't gotten through to you is that whether the use of A PARTICULAR HERB is or isn't scientific depends on the METHODOLOGY by which it was found, or supposedly found, to have medicinal properties. Double-blind tests, yes. Old wives' tales, no. A herbalist relying on the latter is unscientifc: on the former, scientific.

 

[jambo372]

Dr Adequate
I'm not saying crystal healing is useless because for all I know it might not be - I've saw enough people who swear by it.

Essential oils can be used by inhalation or by applying them topically and their active components being absorbed through the skin into the bloodstream.

 

[geni]

Dr Adequate
I'm not saying crystal healing is useless because for all I know it might not be - I've saw enough people who swear by it.

Aztecs sun. Need I explain further?

Essential oils can be used by inhalation or by applying them topically and their active components being absorbed through the skin into the bloodstream. [/B]

Of course they can be used that way but is there any evidence that they work?

 

[jambo372]

Yes there's evidence they have beneficial properties.

 

[geni]

Yes there's evidence they have beneficial properties.

Really? Lets see some properly conduted clinical trials then.

 

[Mojo]

Secondly when you say a "trained herbalist" I am wondering what you mean

Housetrained?

 

[Ashles]

I've saw enough people who swear by it.

Jambo it's really time you stopped using these types of arguments.

Lots of people swear by:
Throwing salt over their shoulder to keep the Devil away
Avoiding treading on cracks in the pavement
Avoiding the colour green
Black cats are lucky/unlucky
Palmistry
Homeopathy
Scientology
Feng Shui
etc.

It's called superstition. Just because a lot of people believe in a thing doesn't make it true.

Until a few days ago I thougt that the phases of the moon were due to the shadow cast on it by the earth being between it and the sun. If someone had asked me about the phases of the moon I would happily have explained it as such. Many people believe the same thing. I now know I was incorrect. I'm glad I have had my knowledge corrected.

People often don't know any better because they haven't been exposed to the correct information. But you seem to want to ignore any information if it disagrees with your already held beliefs. That's no way to learn anything new.

There is absolutely nothing defensible in terms of healing about crystals. Yet you feel you have to resort to an argument which is basically "Well lots of people believe in it"
Well that doesn't mean it's real.

It's beyond me as to why you can't admit that some of these things might have no value whatsoever.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I can make up whatever I want to about herbs, put it in course materials, and teach other people to remember the crap I wrote. There is nothing of a standard when it comes to herbalism, naturopaths, etc. What is worse is that the misinformation gets passed down from generation to generation without any actual facts being checked out and verified.

any wacko and/or scam artist in Canada can set up a
private school to teach anything they want in the field of alternative medicine. Then they can take their huge tuition that they paid to study some bizarre, unproved alternative medical scam and fill in a form to deduct their tuition. Why does the government of Canada allow this?

Here is a Google search for HealthPro College of Natural Medicine.

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q="HealthPro+College+of+Natural+Medicine"

http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:91234:200409:ekcoilacknpiafjfiaik

Case in point, all the crap Young teaches in his Young Living Oils classes on things like raindrop therapy.
http://www.naturesgift.com/RDT.htm

It promotes the unsafe use of essential oils, putting people at risk of skin irritation and
There is no published empirical substantiation to support its claims that RDT is a "tool for assisting the body in correcting defects in the curvature of the spine, such as scoliosis.

You can write whatever you want to sell whatever you want. Nothing is regulated.

So when somebody tells me they spent 4 years learning crap, then I'm not impressed one bit. Look at chiros.

 

[Ashles]

She just said a scientific credited report

Well if that's the case could she show it to you? Or could we know the details of the report so we can look it up ourselves?

What would be wrong in asking her about this report? (Unless you suspect that it might not exist.)
If it does exist then we can all read it and discuss it in more detail.

 

[Dr Adequate]

jambo, if you're still listening, I hope you've got the point.

It's not WHAT you think --- it's HOW you found it out.

Welcome to the wonderful world of scepticism.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

jambo, if you're still listening, I hope you've got the point.

It's not WHAT you think --- it's HOW you found it out.

Welcome to the wonderful world of scepticism.

I'm beginning to think that jambo is a lost cause until he/she gets older, and even then, probably is a culturaly predisposed woo.. Surely herbalism, aromatherapy, crystal healing etc. is not what he/she considers 'a career in medicine'?

What on earth are schools teaching as 'science' these days?

 

[jambo372]

The Mighty Thor
When I said a career in medicine I meant I wanted to be a medical microbiologist, I don't consider aromatherapy and crystal therapy to be careers in medicine, but I consider herbalism to be a valuable sub category of medicine ... if you say I'm wrong see in previous posts the vast list of life-saving medications which are botanical in origin and have revolutionised many areas of medicine. My career has nothing to do with this anyway.

Dr Adequate
I'm not basing my beliefs on what I think , I'm basing them on how I found out. Welcome to the wonderful world of scepticism - I see nothing at all wonderful about it.

 

[Ashles]

I consider herbalism to be a valuable sub category of medicine

Well you may consider it such, but it isn't. Herbalism isn't the study of plants, or the study of properties of plants or a scientific discipline at all.
No-one is disputing that some plants have properties that can alleviate symptoms or have some curative properties. But no serious scientist would refer to the study of this as herbalism.
It's not the plants themselves that have the healing properties, but chemicals within them - i.e. you can get the same effect by extracting the chemicals and applying them directly. No plant is required.
Herbalism, however, concentrates on the theory that it is the plant that is required because it makes it sound more natural and healthy somehow.

Herbalism is not a scientific discipline and does not analyse its results as such. Some of the suggestions on your list are agreed with by medical science, and some most definitely are not. Herbalism does not carry out tests and trials to continually test the efficacy of what it recommends, instead, once a plant is rumoured to have certain properties it is claimed to have them full stop.
Overall it's far too hit and miss to be called a serious way of looking at plant properties.

 

[epepke]

She just said a scientific credited report.

I'm sorry, jambo372, but just hearing somebody say that something is a "scientific credited" report means worse than nothing.

Science is the least hierarchical of all endeavors I know of. In science, the common practice is for people to try to rip any idea to shreds. That's what we're doing. It's a rather brutal process, and this is good. Because the idea is that something that is actually true can eventually survive brutal scrutiny.

It is quite difficult for human beings to subject their ideas to this kind of brutal scrutiny, which is why there is more pseudoscience than science. and also why training in science is important. It is largely a process of learning how to live with the fact that one's cherished ideas may turn out to be wrong. This is not easy.

Herbalism certainly isn't unscientific as we've saw from previous posts here telling how

All your examples, while valid, survived brutal scientific scrutiny. This does not mean that "herbalism" is scientific. To find out the answer to that, you would have to look at what herbalists do and to what extent they are willing to change their views when being subjected to brutal scientific scrutiny.

My experience is that those who call themselves "herbalists" are not generally that courageous. When they are, if the ideas succeed, then they become accepted in the scientific community.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

The Mighty Thor
see in previous posts the vast list of life-saving medications which are botanical in origin and have revolutionised many areas of medicine. My career has nothing to do with this anyway.

That's not herbalism. That's science based medicine. Herbalism is chucking some bark in a mixer and saying it will cure headaches - nevermind what that does to your stomach if too much active ingredient actually makes it into the mix.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

All of this will matter in your career. You will see the differences in "herbalism" compared to what you actually study. I hope there are som Labs in your courses.

I commend you in your endeavor, and know you will totally get what we are saying one day.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

All of this will matter in your career. You will see the differences in "herbalism" compared to what you actually study. I hope there are som Labs in your courses.

I commend you in your endeavor, and know you will totally get what we are saying one day.

Thank you for putting that so clearly. I was tryng to point jambo toward a realisation that a career in science requires the adoption of critical thinking techniques. He has not shown any awareness of how the scientific method works. His pronouncements on Nina Kulagina and other wooism does not display a familiarity with critical thinking or the scientific method. He must spend quite a bit of time reading up on these supposed paranormalists. Yet, reading about Newton, Darwin, Mendel, or Fleming might benefit him more in his proposed career. And these real wonder-workers can be every bit as interesting and exciting as the paranormal.

"Life is short, the art long, opportunity fleeting, experiment treacherous, judgment difficult."
Hippocrates

Yet, I admit that I did not develop critical thinking until University. I doubt if many school students would know what a peer-reviewed, published scientific paper really is.

I suppose in some ways, I am criticising the education system rather than jambo per se.