Help stop Patriot II

[shanek]

I am getting the impression that you are taking every post of mine as some sort of attack on your position, whereas I came into it thinking that we were going to have a conversation.

I merely asked a question...

You seemed to indicate or imply that Patriot II might be "snuck" through Congress as riders on other bills.

I pointed out that this was a possibility. And with such riders, they're often added at the last minute with little debate. If that's the route they end up taking, we need to make our position to our representatives known now.

On the other hand, if Patriot II never happens, it's no harm, no foul. At the very least our representatives will know we're against any such measure in the future.

My comments involved (1) Patriot I did not pass this way. That was not -- despite your denial -- an allegation that you said that it had passed that way, just a note in passing. If the original Patriot Act went through as legislation, I was wondering why you felt that Patriot II -- to the extent that it ever exists in future -- would be sent through Congress that way.

I didn't say that it would, merely that it could. Two different things.

Since "most really dangerous legislation" goes through on riders, as you have stated above, I was also curious what legislation you were thinking of.

Just look at any given bill. There's at least one rider that doesn't have anything to do with the bill there.

My favorite example is the 1998 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill (H.R. 1469), passed to appropriate funds to the relief of victims of the Red River flood, which (far from a complete list):

• Gave money to the DoD for operations in Bosnia,
• Provided for the collection of statistics from cheese manufacturers,
• Gave $3,000,000 to the Attorney General for use in countering threats of terrorism at the Olympic games in Utah,
• Protection for marine mammals trapped in fishing gear,
• Repairing or replacing concession utilities at Yosemete National Park,
• Settling a dispute with an Indian reservation,
• Permit the importation of polar bear parts from Canada,
• More unconstitutional and dangerous counterterrorism and drug law enforcement procedures, including more thorough searches at airports,
• Money to construct a courthouse in Montgomery, AL, a parking garage in Ashland, Kentucky, and other boondoggles,
• Amendments to the Truth in Lending Act forcing banks and other creditors to disclose financial activities to the government,
• $2 million for the establishment of a Law Enforcement Commission which requires states to share criminal records with the Federal government,
• Prohibiting studies on the medicinal use of marijuana

So, rider after rider after rider, more than a few of which are dangerous and scary. Add to that, the fact that the bill did not appropriate a single penny to help victims of the Red River flood!

 

[rikzilla]

The PATRIOT Act is scary enough; now, John Ashcroft, who never saw a Constitutional violation he didn't like, is working to make it even worse.

Fortunately, the ACLU has put up a web page where you can fax your representatives for free, as well as get more info on Patriot II.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11817&c=206&Type=s

Thanks for the link Shanek:

The new Ashcroft proposal threatens to fundamentally alter the Constitutional protections that allow us to be both safe and free," said Timothy H. Edgar, an ACLU Legislative Counsel. "If it becomes law, it will encourage police spying on political and religious activities, allow the government to wiretap without going to court and dramatically expand the death penalty under an overbroad definition of terrorism."

Sounds like a plan....I'm on the phone with my Congressman Tom Davis's office....I have voiced my unflagging support of this bill Ashcroft may be a religious nut....but there are worse things running around in our world right now. They're called terrorists. (and leftists)

-zilla

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Help stop Patriot II

Thanks for the link Shanek:


Sounds like a plan....I'm on the phone with my Congressman Tom Davis's office....I have voiced my unflagging support of this bill Ashcroft may be a religious nut....but there are worse things running around in our world right now. They're called terrorists. (and leftists)

-zilla

Rik, I'm curious. Do you adopt such stances purely to be outrageous, to p*ss off liberal members of the forum, or because you actually do believe these things?

If you actually do believe them, why do you object to being labeled a right-winger?

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: Help stop Patriot II

Sounds like a plan....I'm on the phone with my Congressman Tom Davis's office....I have voiced my unflagging support of this bill Ashcroft may be a religious nut....but there are worse things running around in our world right now. They're called terrorists. (and leftists)

What do we gain if we protect ourselves from terrorists but lose our sovereign rights in the process?

 

[rikzilla]

Re: Re: Re: Help stop Patriot II

Rik, I'm curious. Do you adopt such stances purely to be outrageous, to p*ss off liberal members of the forum, or because you actually do believe these things?

If you actually do believe them, why do you object to being labeled a right-winger?

Because I'm pissed off that I was ever stupid enough to believe in Bill Clinton. Voted for him...not once but twice. I'm sorry that it took until now, doing research about Iraq that I found out that the USA under Clinton knew that Ramzi Yusef (WTC bomber from 1993) was an Iraqi intelligence agent and did nothing about it. Khalid Sheik Muhammed is Ramzi Yusef's uncle by the way. So keep telling me that Iraq has no known ties to al Qaida when an Iraqi Mukhabarrat agent/terrorist is the nephew of the number 3 man in al Qaida.

1995 When the world saw the Iraqi smoking gun after the defection of Hussein Kamal....Clinton admin did nothing. Oh, later he bombed an asprin factory! Clinton even provided the central idea to al Qaida. From Somalia...hurt them...drag them thru the street and they will run.

Then...on 9/11 as I watched while the Pentagon burned and people lept from the flaming WTC every well cultivated, liberal bone in my body broke.

Thankfully they have not grown back. Many Liberals are nothing more than well meaning idiots, they serve no purpose in a time of war. They are useful only in times of peace when social progress towards more freedom can happen. In wartime they are downright dangerous. Be conservative in times of peril....entertain the notions of liberals when danger is far from our shores.

-zilla

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Help stop Patriot II

Be conservative in times of peril....entertain the notions of liberals when danger is far from our shores.

-zilla

OK, but then at least be honest about it. Next to JK, you are easily the farthest person to the right on this board. That's fine, but then don't be touchy when people point out just how really FAR to the right your opinions are. You can't have it both ways.

 

[subgenius]

There was no demonstrated need for "Patriot" I, much less II.
This alone tells you there's a different agenda.

If certain agencies had merely not been asleep at the wheel....and now that they're awake we don't need this garbage.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. "--no dummy

(Nor will they get it)

 

[subgenius]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Help stop Patriot II

Because I'm pissed off that I was ever stupid enough to believe in Bill Clinton. Voted for him...not once but twice. I'm sorry that it took until now, doing research about Iraq that I found out that the USA under Clinton knew that Ramzi Yusef (WTC bomber from 1993) was an Iraqi intelligence agent and did nothing about it. Khalid Sheik Muhammed is Ramzi Yusef's uncle by the way. So keep telling me that Iraq has no known ties to al Qaida when an Iraqi Mukhabarrat agent/terrorist is the nephew of the number 3 man in al Qaida.

1995 When the world saw the Iraqi smoking gun after the defection of Hussein Kamal....Clinton admin did nothing. Oh, later he bombed an asprin factory! Clinton even provided the central idea to al Qaida. From Somalia...hurt them...drag them thru the street and they will run.

Then...on 9/11 as I watched while the Pentagon burned and people lept from the flaming WTC every well cultivated, liberal bone in my body broke.

Thankfully they have not grown back. Many Liberals are nothing more than well meaning idiots, they serve no purpose in a time of war. They are useful only in times of peace when social progress towards more freedom can happen. In wartime they are downright dangerous. Be conservative in times of peril....entertain the notions of liberals when danger is far from our shores.

-zilla

That didn't answer the question.
None of your pain or those events had anything to do with liberalism.
Neither does Bush's complicity in events have a direct bearing on conservatism as a philosophy.

 

[crackmonkey]

Patriot 2 is a hoax, cooked up by the ACLU or some other anti-Bush organization. You guys don't need a very high standard of proof in order to believe what you want to be true...

 

[rikzilla]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Help stop Patriot II

OK, but then at least be honest about it. Next to JK, you are easily the farthest person to the right on this board. That's fine, but then don't be touchy when people point out just how really FAR to the right your opinions are. You can't have it both ways.

That may be true on this board. But if I'm you're idea of a far right winger I shudder to think of what you call GWB, Colin Powell or even the slightly evil J. Ashcroft! Sundog, what on earth would you call a fully robed grand dragon of the KKK,...David Duke, or the lovely and talented Pat Buchanon!!

You better leave some room in your worldview for the "far right wing"!

I, OTOH, am a registered Democrat, I voted for Bill Clinton twice...and even registered a protest vote in 2000 for Ralph Nader (but only after it became common knowledge that GWB would win Virginia with ease)

....I am pro gun control...common sense gun control that is...(mandatory trigger locks and background checks with every purchase....anti assault weapon), full on against any restrictions against concealed carry for folks who can pass the legal tests

.....pro abortion...(with common sense limitation) 100% pro-choice in the first trimester....medical excuse only in 2nd trimester....100% against late term abortions.

.....pro Gay rights with no qualifications. These people are just as entitled as any other American to live their lives as they wish as long as they do not impede the rights of others...In other words they should be treated just like anyone else...no worse, no better.

I am a shop steward in my union (Teamsters Local 111...communications workers of America)

.... A proponent of women's rights.....again, equal rights...not better rights....just equal in all aspects of public and private life.

.....A foe of the "War on Drugs".....In the land of freedom we should be free to make choices for ourselves. Tobacco and alcohol have killed more of my friends than illegal substances ever have (and I have alot of friends who have partaken in alot of "controlled substances")

.....

I still hold all these opinions. My opinion on interracial couples would undoubtedly get me hung within 5 mins at a KKK rally. So save a little room on the right wing son,...you'll need it for the real wackos.

-zilla

PS:
Sundog,...just because I have some controversial ideas and am not afraid to speak my peace doesn't mean you can put a label on me and make it stick. You can't. If I'm anything, I'm an EX-Liberal. One of those politically middle of the road people that you guys used to be able to count on...but started to lose on 9/11....and lost completely after I researched Iraq and the actions of the Clinton admin that helped build al Qaida and Iraq into the threats they are today.