Help me out with this video, please

I think someone else has already mentioned that the particular version of this video in the OP is a mono-stereo mix and not the same as the earlier versions of this video which where around on YouTube back in 2005 or whenever this was an in theory.

:rolleyes: How convenient for you. Why did you bother telling me to check it myself then ?

Just download the video and load it into sound editing software.

:boggled: :D


That would take far more time and effort on my part than I feel you are worth. Sorry. I am not going to jump through hoops for your benefit. I honestly do not care at all if you believe me or not.

Sorry you don't "feel" like it. I just thought with the time and effort you put into this post, telling me how little I understand of what you claim, you might want to spend it more usefully. I guess not. What a bedunker surprise.

Obviously, if you can't produce the data upon which you base these bizarre assertions, few are going to believe you. I guess you're okay with that.


Like I said, it's very, very, very common. I am not offering it as what I honestly believe happened. I have no idea why that explosion was added to that video, nor who added it. I just know it has been added.

What you believe happened isn't relevant here, as you yourself acknowledged earlier. Using some common sense though, is. If that segment was re-mixed for a documentary broadcast, a very likely scenario, that would explain all your alleged observations. Therefore, this entire thread has been just another waste of time; a spurious, 9/11 bedunker allegation that remains unsupported and, in any case, irrelevant.

What a surprise.
 
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What you believe happened isn't relevant here, as you yourself acknowledged earlier.

He's a professional in audio production/post-production of some years (specific number I'll leave to Gumboot). I'm a television editor of 20 years and didn't need scopes and waveforms to know that the 'explosion' was added-in at a later point because initially it was a stereo element in an otherwise-mono mix and because even when mono'd later to cover the tracks of the doofus original uploader, the 'explosion' element had too clear a fidelity compared to the sync recording. Ergo, it wasn't recorded on the same equipment at the same time as the sync material.

Gumboot explained this to you thoroughly and concisely. If you don't understand, have a professional near where you live translate it into 'truther'.

Using some common sense though, is. If that segment was re-mixed for a documentary broadcast, a very likely scenario, that would explain all your alleged observations.

IIRC, someone tracked it down from a docudrama about 9/11, the name of which escapes me just now. In any case, manufactured 'reality' is being passed off by 'truthers' as Reality©.

Therefore, this entire thread has been just another waste of time; a spurious, 9/11 bedunker truther allegation that remains unsupported and, in any case, irrelevant.

FTFY.

What a surprise.

Quel surprise! You're schooled by professionals and it's the professionals that're the heavy in your world. :rolleyes:
 
He's a professional in audio production/post-production of some years (specific number I'll leave to Gumboot). I'm a television editor of 20 years and didn't need scopes and waveforms to know that the 'explosion' was added-in at a later point because initially it was a stereo element in an otherwise-mono mix and because even when mono'd later to cover the tracks of the doofus original uploader, the 'explosion' element had too clear a fidelity compared to the sync recording. Ergo, it wasn't recorded on the same equipment at the same time as the sync material.

Gumboot explained this to you thoroughly and concisely. If you don't understand, have a professional near where you live translate it into 'truther'.
In addition, once again, the the part about the two men's curious lack of reaction, the absence of such an explosion from the ton of other videos and eyewitness testimony, and the complete lack of medical evidence consistent with a close-range demolitions explosion.
 
:rolleyes: How convenient for you. Why did you bother telling me to check it myself then ?
I think he was basing that advice the rather overconfident belief that you knew what to look for. What you have shown is the same level of proficiency with Audacity that I profess; not very much.
 
:rolleyes: How convenient for you. Why did you bother telling me to check it myself then ?

Because I'm not a trained monkey who will play tunes for your amusement. If you want to find out about the video do so yourself.


Sorry you don't "feel" like it. I just thought with the time and effort you put into this post, telling me how little I understand of what you claim, you might want to spend it more usefully. I guess not. What a bedunker surprise.

Writing that post took about a minute. Doing what you want would take considerably longer.


Obviously, if you can't produce the data upon which you base these bizarre assertions, few are going to believe you. I guess you're okay with that.

I've already done so once, as any old-time posters here will recall.


What you believe happened isn't relevant here, as you yourself acknowledged earlier.

I agree.



Using some common sense though, is. If that segment was re-mixed for a documentary broadcast, a very likely scenario, that would explain all your alleged observations.

I hate to rain on your parade but no, it wouldn't. Sorry. Once again. You don't know what you're talking about. You clearly do not understand audio. You cannot "remix" live-recorded audio to produce the results we see in this video.


Therefore, this entire thread has been just another waste of time;

Btodd appears to be satisfied with the responses they've received about the video so no, it wasn't a waste of time.




a spurious, 9/11 bedunker allegation that remains unsupported and, in any case, irrelevant.

What a surprise.

Pssst. This thread isn't about you.
 
IIRC, someone tracked it down from a docudrama about 9/11, the name of which escapes me just now. In any case, manufactured 'reality' is being passed off by 'truthers' as Reality©.

"9/11 Stories From The City", distributed by "Camera Planet". The actual documentary is assembled from sourced amateur footage shot on 9/11.

It was me that tracked down the source of the video. If I seem a little reluctant to devote any effort into ergo's demands it's because I've already spent hours on this stupid video and have no desire to repeat myself for their benefit.

The only useful thing (for me) that has come out of this thread is the interesting info MikeW has uncovered that indicates the explosion was probably added by the documentary filmmakers. What's really curious to me is watching the video in context (admittedly with a Hungarian voice over!) I honestly can't see why they would have added the explosion. Usually it's pretty obvious (such as video of an explosion, without sound). It's a little bizarre.
 
Since then I've realised it's a waste of time. I seldom post here any more. Every now and then this video crops back up. Some people never learn.
I just wanted to add a side note that your efforts may be wasted on the wasted, but I get some insight into your thoughts processes even if I don't get all the audio details.

So thanks.
 
I just wanted to add a side note that your efforts may be wasted on the wasted, but I get some insight into your thoughts processes even if I don't get all the audio details.

So thanks.

Same here ;)
 
Sorry guys, I can't support the theory that this explosion sound was added to the video later. Below is a jpg of the waveform. I'll explain what I see:

1)The whole track here is in mono, not stereo. I have no way to pick out the explosion from the audio on the basis that it is in stereo, but perhaps someone has a different version.

2) There is a lot of audio clipping throughout the track, from the mens voices and also from the explosion sound. This is consistent with them all being produced by the same camera electronics.

3) You will notice the density of the sound of conversation (amplitude is represented vertically, time horizontally) is high at the beginning of the clip. The explosion sound occurs about 4.75 bars into the clip (yeah, I didn't bother measuring in seconds, sorry!) You can see the limiter circuitry kicked in and tried to attenuate the levels...now you see a lot of peaks, probably the sampling rate of the limiter. Conversation is again heard, but is affected by the limiter circuitry until about 7.25 bars in.

Had the explosion just been superimposed on the existing audio track, you would not have seen the waveform of the men's voices altered from 4.75 to 7.25. It appears that the camera's limiter was responding to the explosion for several seconds.

At least that's my interpretation of it. It would be nice to have a stereo original version to analyze, if one indeed exists.

ETA: I listened very carefully thru headphones to the conversation and comments directly following the explosion. I can not support the claim that someone mentions building 7. If you can make that out from the garbled mess, then you must have superpowers I do not possess. At best this is a very liberal interpretation of what is on the audio track..... IMO.

AudioWaveform.jpg
 
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"9/11 Stories From The City", distributed by "Camera Planet". The actual documentary is assembled from sourced amateur footage shot on 9/11.

Gracias. Nice to see someone has a better memory than I (talk about damning with faint praise :D)

If I seem a little reluctant to devote any effort into ergo's demands it's because I've already spent hours on this stupid video and have no desire to repeat myself for their benefit.

The reality is that the ergo's of the world don't want to be disabused of their closely-held delusions. All that giving a rational and reasoned explanation of things does is to cull the weaker-willed woo wascals, making the remainder hardier and more inured to reality no matter how persuasively-framed

What's really curious to me is watching the video in context (admittedly with a Hungarian voice over!) I honestly can't see why they would have added the explosion. Usually it's pretty obvious (such as video of an explosion, without sound). It's a little bizarre.

I blame it on the producer. No self-respecting post-person would've willingly added something so blatant. :D
 
Sorry guys, I can't support the theory that this explosion sound was added to the video later. Below is a jpg of the waveform. I'll explain what I see:

1)The whole track here is in mono, not stereo. I have no way to pick out the explosion from the audio on the basis that it is in stereo, but perhaps someone has a different version.

The clip that was originally uploaded had a stereo explosion in an otherwise-mono soundtrack. The clip has been re-upped with the pans centred.

2) There is a lot of audio clipping throughout the track, from the mens voices and also from the explosion sound. This is consistent with them all being produced by the same camera electronics.

No it isn't. Think about it. How much of difference in sound pressure is there between a conversational voice and an explosion (recorded from [I'm guestimating here] about 500' away? Tons. Factors of hundreds if not thousands. If the voices are clipping, any explosion that would draw that reaction from the guys in the shot should be completely overwhelming to the microphone. There shouldn't be any way to discern any detail of the sound beyond its overbearing presence.

Yet we do. So what are we to infer from that? Two professionals in the field hear the pitter-patter of a truther rat and have given good and sustainable rationales why that is.

3) You will notice the density of the sound of conversation (amplitude is represented vertically, time horizontally) is high at the beginning of the clip. The explosion sound occurs about 4.75 bars into the clip (yeah, I didn't bother measuring in seconds, sorry!) You can see the limiter circuitry kicked in and tried to attenuate the levels...now you see a lot of peaks, probably the sampling rate of the limiter. Conversation is again heard, but is affected by the limiter circuitry until about 7.25 bars in.

Your waveform would look quite a bit different if the 'explosion' were recorded by the microphone that recorded the sync for reasons I've already explained and for which I don't intend to educate 'truthers' in how to pass-off doctored audio.


At least that's my interpretation of it. It would be nice to have a stereo original version to analyze, if one indeed exists.

For the reason I state above, I won't tell you why this would not be as helpful as you think it would be
 
I hate to rain on your parade but no, it wouldn't. Sorry. Once again. You don't know what you're talking about. You clearly do not understand audio. You cannot "remix" live-recorded audio to produce the results we see in this video.


For all we know, the explosion is replacing an actual explosion recorded at the time. Perhaps the quality of the explosion was so bad (due to those microphone limitations I keep talking about) the documentary filmmakers put their own explosion in to enhance it. That's quite common. Most documentary films that depict WTC2 being hit, for example, add an explosion.

:rolleyes:
 
Come to think of it, there are a few inconsistencies in what Gumboots has posted here.


When this video first cropped up I did a quick analysis of the sound, and even that was enough to determine conclusively that the explosion had been added to the video post-recording.

I did it back when I had a lot of spare time and was really involved in researching 9/11 related stuff. It didn't take particularly long, and it was an interesting exercise.

I've already spent hours on this stupid video and have no desire to repeat myself for their benefit.


Also,


...[Y]ou can actually determine most of the points I've explained using Windows Sound Wave, and all of them using even the most basic sound-editing software.

Just download the video and load it into sound editing software.


So when I not only did that, but posted the screen caps so that he could explain his points, what was his response?


I think someone else has already mentioned that the particular version of this video in the OP is a mono-stereo mix and not the same as the earlier versions of this video which where around on YouTube back in 2005 or whenever this was an in theory.



More contradictions:

I'm certainly not willing to claim someone deliberately "faked" an explosion to support a CD claim, because there's no evidence they did.

Perhaps the quality of the explosion was so bad (due to those microphone limitations I keep talking about) the documentary filmmakers put their own explosion in to enhance it. That's quite common.

I am not offering it as what I honestly believe happened. I have no idea why that explosion was added to that video, nor who added it. I just know it has been added.


Even though he just supplied a likely reason why it might have been done. :boggled:


The explosion and the other sound, if they had been recorded together, would be part of the same audiowave. It's not possible to separate out just the explosion and enhance it in the ways I observed, without also enhancing the other sound in the same way.

Actually, as anyone who has worked with digital sound even in an amateur fashion knows, you can do anything you want with it. You can cut segments out, enhance them or edit them in any way you want, and reinsert it. Like cutting and pasting. Indeed, this is what he has already suggested occurred, for completely unsuspicious reasons.


The only theoretical way you could capture live what we see on that video is if a sound mixer was dynamically mixing the audio during the take, but that would require them to know precisely when the explosion is going to happen, and even then the level shift is instantaneous so it would have to be a sound operator with inhuman performance.

Again, this contradicts what the simple audio of the Landmark implosion shows, as I point out above. The sounds were captured. No reason to suspect that they had been added or enhanced. Same signature as we see in the video in question. Stupid. He's trying to claim that capturing that sound live would have required superhuman live mixing. He's already acknowledged that the audio he examined was from the documentary. He's already acknowledged why that segment might have been enhanced or otherwise altered. Moreover, as the Landmark video shows, a simple camera mic can capture explosion sounds with a good degree of accuracy.
 
Well, you could just use the forum search feature and find the original thread. It's not like the explanation is lost forever.
 
Come to think of it, there are a few inconsistencies in what Gumboots has posted here.
Quick analysis of the sound, followed by a more in-depth one, and now he's tired of it.

Also,

So when I not only did that, but posted the screen caps so that he could explain his points, what was his response?
His response was that the video he analyzed and believes was edited was, at some point, further edited to obscure evidence of such editing?

Oh, and Fitzgibbon makes what seems like some excellent points in #72.


More contradictions:

Even though he just supplied a likely reason why it might have been done. :boggled:
I see your comprehension of the difference between an openly admitted hypothetical and a statement of fact is on the same level as that of the difference between "onto" and "into".

Actually, as anyone who has worked with digital sound even in an amateur fashion knows, you can do anything you want with it. You can cut segments out, enhance them or edit them in any way you want, and reinsert it. Like cutting and pasting. Indeed, this is what he has already suggested occurred, for completely unsuspicious reasons.
Speaking as "someone who has worked with digital sound in an amateur fashion knows," this is broadly correct. However, there is only so much you can do within the limits of the original media and still be plausible, like pasting a stereo sound over a mono soundtrack. In addition to the curiously understated reaction and the lack of corroborating physical evidence and testimony, I'm gonna have to call this one "busted".

Again, this contradicts what the simple audio of the Landmark implosion shows, as I point out above. The sounds were captured. No reason to suspect that they had been added or enhanced.
Except for the part where they're inconsistent with the rest of the audio. And the video. And any sort of corroborating evidence on 9/11.

Same signature as we see in the video in question.
Assuming that's true, you have yet to contest the testimony that there have been multiple versions of the video.

Stupid. He's trying to claim that capturing that sound live would have required superhuman live mixing. He's already acknowledged that the audio he examined was from the documentary. He's already acknowledged why that segment might have been enhanced or otherwise altered.
In post-processing. After recording. Hypothetical/statement, into/onto, real-time/post-processing. You're building up quite a resume.

Moreover, as the Landmark video shows, a simple camera mic can capture explosion sounds with a good degree of accuracy.
What does accuracy have to do with it? The audio does not make sense in context, period. If you go and look at photos of WTC 7 after the alleged explosion, you'll notice a lack of blown out windows and barotrauma.

Say, I haven't seen the Landmark video. Does the audio peak? What was the range (to the explosion), relative to where this video was shot (in relation to WTC 7)?
 
Well, you could just use the forum search feature and find the original thread. It's not like the explanation is lost forever.

Good idea. Just clicking on the tag link produced this page:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/tags.php?tag=fake+explosion+sound

listing several threads in which Gumboots proclaims audio fakery for just about any truther video with explosions in it. And he's so darn sure of himself - every time. :D

I wonder why gumboot doesn't suspect the Landmark implosion video? Same sound, same signature. Surely it must be faked? Maybe he alone has secret access to the original source clips for all truther videos??
 
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Actually, as anyone who has worked with digital sound even in an amateur fashion knows, you can do anything you want with it. You can cut segments out, enhance them or edit them in any way you want, and reinsert it. Like cutting and pasting. Indeed, this is what he has already suggested occurred, for completely unsuspicious reasons.

But you still aren't explaining why the sync voices are so crappy and clipped while the 'explosion' which should completely overdrive the camera's microphone is crisp.

You really don't understand, do you?

Moreover, as the Landmark video shows, a simple camera mic can capture explosion sounds with a good degree of accuracy.

Oh certainly it can when the levels on the record device are set so the sound pressure won't overdrive the recording. What it CAN'T do is on the one hand distort and clip on run-of-the-mill conversation while magically, simultaneously and with flawless clarity capture an 'explosion' which is orders of magnitude louder. Six year olds might not recognise the disconnect but just about anyone older who isn't here to grind an axe certainly could.

The 'explosion' is a post-production creation. It was not sync with the location voices and it was not recorded by that camera because the first upload of this was in stereo and news camcorders don't use stereo microphones.

This is another 'truther' canard.
 
Good idea. Just clicking on the tag link produced this page:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/tags.php?tag=fake+explosion+sound

listing several threads in which Gumboots proclaims audio fakery for just about any truther video with explosions in it. And he's so darn sure of himself - every time. :D
And your evidence he's wrong even one of those times is...

Oh, wait, you don't have any. You're just using your usual ad hominems and incredulity. It really is flamingly hypocritical of you to complain about what you see as someone else's arrogance, though, especially in a thread where you scoffed at the millenia-old idea of the sun's position being used to tell time, and never admitted you were wrong. Why should a sound engineer remain silent when sound-engineering is relevant? Of course, I don't suppose it's really that odd for a Truther to expect that the people who know least about a given subject should be able to speak authoritatively on it.

I wonder why gumboot doesn't suspect the Landmark implosion video? Same sound, same signature.
It's only the same sound if you already assume the sound on the tape is a demolitions explosion. Same distance to the alleged explosion location? I don't think so. Comparable mic quality? Unknown.

Surely it must be faked? Maybe he alone has secret access to the original source clips for all truther videos??
Why would a video claiming to be of an implosion, that shows a known implosion, be suspected of trickery? Why would it be relevant to determining whether the sound in the video we're discussing is an implosion? Why should someone analyze a video on your say so, just so you can have a larger body of statements to misinterpret and quote-mine, as you do?

Also, Gumboot didn't say the video was edited by Truthers (or anyone) just touted by them as evidence.

Also also, you're ignoring my posts. Not that I actually care, I'm just pointing it out to everyone.

#000063bookmark: Ergo doesn't understand more things.
 
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But you still aren't explaining why the sync voices are so crappy and clipped while the 'explosion' which should completely overdrive the camera's microphone is crisp.


From the archived thread referred to:
MikeW said:
Unfortunately it didn't help me figure out how large the original explosion was, because the film had been dubbed - they lowered the original audio and added a voiceover on top. So there IS an explosion at that point, it sounded quieter than that, but so did everything because they've dipped the original volume. We still need the original footage to figure this out properly.


Seems like a plausible explanation. :rolleyes:
 

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