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Help Judge the Candidates

H3LL

Illuminator
H3LL
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
4,963
Help me decide between Bush and Kerry. Not that I will vote, but out of curiosity.

I thought is would be interesting to focus on the biggest liar as most of us have firm opinions on policy and are unlikely to be moved, but most of us dislike liars.

To be fair, it's important to exclude lies related to the administration as Kerry hasn't had the opportunity to play that game yet.

I'm not sure how long I have to edit the table below, but I will add any given, provided there is an external credible link to support the lie, and I will credit the poster.

Please make the lie description/reference short. I'm lazy :D

<div align="left"><table border="1" cellspacing="1" width="90%" id="AutoNumber1"><tr><td width="25%" align="center">BUSH LIES</td><td width="25%" align="center">Supplied By</td><td width="25%" align="center">KERRY LIES</td><td width="25%" align="center">Supplied By</td></tr><tr><td width="25%"></td><td width="25%"></td><td width="25%"></td><td width="25%"></td></tr><tr><td width="25%"></td><td width="25%"></td><td width="25%"></td><td width="25%"></td></tr></table></div>
 
Well, I saw Kerry on TV the other day promising to cut the deficit in half in 4 years. So there is lie #1.

Bush said he was looking for supreme court justices that would interpret the constitution literally. That is the last thing he wants! So there is a lie for him.

It's 1-1.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Well, I saw Kerry on TV the other day promising to cut the deficit in half in 4 years. So there is lie #1.
Click to expand...

I don't think a promise is a lie, however unbelievable. If he doesn't become president it will be impossible unless he's very rich and generous. Also no link. Sorry, it can't go in the list.

....That is the last thing he wants!
Click to expand...

Opinion. Not a lie unless shown to be the last thing Bush wants. If you have a link to show it to be so, it can go in the list.

Thanks all the same:)
 
Kopji said:
Be way easier to count instances of telling the truth.
Click to expand...

:D

I wouldn't need the table. I'll let you start that thread.;)
 
H3LL said:
I don't think a promise is a lie, however unbelievable. If he doesn't become president it will be impossible unless he's very rich and generous. Also no link. Sorry, it can't go in the list.



Opinion. Not a lie unless shown to be the last thing Bush wants. If you have a link to show it to be so, it can go in the list.

Thanks all the same:)
Click to expand...

Technically, you are correct. However, if you really believe that both men are being truthful, then you are quite gullible!

By your standards of course, I think you will find zero lies on either side.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Technically, you are correct. However, if you really believe that both men are being truthful, then you are quite gullible!

By your standards of course, I think you will find zero lies on either side.
Click to expand...

It's little insulting of you...but such is life.

I don't think asking for a credible link to support the alleged lie is asking too much. They can't be that hard to find.

I wanted to avoid the usually mud-slinging contests that can be found in abundance everywhere, some of which I've contributed to myself :D

This is supposed to be a skeptical forum. I am allowing very flimsy evidence as it is, but that is the nature of politics. ;)

Maybe you should re-read what you have written in the above quote and let me know from which part of this thread you have formed the opinion that I'm gullible or that I believe that both men are truthful or how you know how or what I'm thinking.

My original reply to you was meant to be firm, but polite. I appologise if I offended but I'm at a loss as to how. I'm willing to be educated though but maybe best on another thread.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Well, I saw Kerry on TV the other day promising to cut the deficit in half in 4 years. So there is lie #1.

Bush said he was looking for supreme court justices that would interpret the constitution literally. That is the last thing he wants! So there is a lie for him.

It's 1-1.
Click to expand...
Kerry didn't say "which" 4 years, therefore it's technically not a lie. Anyhow, he hasn't had opportunity (yet) to prove the statement false.

Charlie (lie detector) Monoxide
 
Charlie Monoxide said:
Kerry didn't say "which" 4 years, therefore it's technically not a lie. Anyhow, he hasn't had opportunity (yet) to prove the statement false.

Charlie (lie detector) Monoxide
Click to expand...

Put we all know about politicians and their lies...errr..."promises".
 
H3LL said:
It's little insulting of you...but such is life.

I don't think asking for a credible link to support the alleged lie is asking too much. They can't be that hard to find.

I wanted to avoid the usually mud-slinging contests that can be found in abundance everywhere, some of which I've contributed to myself :D

This is supposed to be a skeptical forum. I am allowing very flimsy evidence as it is, but that is the nature of politics. ;)

Maybe you should re-read what you have written in the above quote and let me know from which part of this thread you have formed the opinion that I'm gullible or that I believe that both men are truthful or how you know how or what I'm thinking.

My original reply to you was meant to be firm, but polite. I appologise if I offended but I'm at a loss as to how. I'm willing to be educated though but maybe best on another thread.
Click to expand...

So by what standard do you judge what is a lie and what isn't? Can you give an example of a "lie" told be either Bush or Kerry?
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
So by what standard do you judge what is a lie and what isn't? Can you give an example of a "lie" told be either Bush or Kerry?
Click to expand...

lie - n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

No, I won't give an example of a Bush or Kerry lie as that would defeat the whole idea by introducing my bias. The last thing most people want to see is one persons opinions.

"I know Robert Wadlow is a midget." Is it a lie or not? Who knows? It's just me saying it.

Go here to find out that I'm a liar.

Is a link to support your post so very hard to find?
 
Some nice tables here:
http://www.bushlies.net/pages/10/

There was a critical juncture a couple years ago at the State of the Union address, where American support could have either tipped towards war or peace with Iraq. By using false evidence about Iraq's search for nuclear weapons in Nigeria Bush deftly tipped the scale in favor of war. Americans sense of patriotism was used against us to support a religion inspired adventure we would not have otherwise entered so rashly.

That said, I don't think politicians lie as much as prevaricate. They probably intend to get at the truth sometime, a lie holds no such promise. It may be that the same skills that promote diplomacy also make one a good prevaricator.

PS:
Although Bush expressed surprise at Kerry's assertion that the president earned $84 from his investment in a timber company and, thus, qualified as a small business -- "I own a timber company? That's news to me. Need some wood?" -- the Web site www.factcheck.orgbacked up Kerry's assertion.
http://theoblogical.org/movtyp/archives/003454.html
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Tell you what, guy. Why don't you just post your Excel spreadsheet so we can end this thread rendered pointless by your rigid constraints.
 
I give up.

I was foolish to think that people would understand what a lie was and be able to find a link on the Internet to support the alleged lie.

My rigid constraints of: provide the information and a link are just too complex and confining for most, it would seem. No wonder the $million challenge gets criticized by the woo-woos for being too restrictive.

The above link from Kopji is more than adequate. Thank you very much for that, Kopji; much appreciated.

I quick Google for 'Kerry Lies' provided the other side.

I'm sorry the thread was unclear. My fault I suppose. I have difficulty in writing English, it seems.

The thread topic can now be considered closed, but feel free to add any other educational comments for me.
 
H3LL said:
Is a link to support your post so very hard to find?
Click to expand...
There used to be a list of lies and distortions by people in the Bush administration about the International Criminal Court on USA for ICC. I thought I'd post a link to it here, but strangely enough it is gone now.

It compared statements by people in the Bush administration with the actual workings of the ICC. It was pretty damning: they couldn't have said anything that was further from the truth, even though the truth is out in the open for everyone who is interested. I find it strange that 'USA of ICC' removed something so important from their site and it makes me wonder whether they buckled because of pressure from republicans or the government.

I'm afraid you'll just have to believe me now. Here is a small list of 'reasons' why the Bush administration is opposed to the ICC and explanations why those reasons are bogus. Unfortunately no comparison of actual quotes with actual ICC provisions like the list on USA for ICC had.
 
H3LL said:
lie - n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

No, I won't give an example of a Bush or Kerry lie as that would defeat the whole idea by introducing my bias. The last thing most people want to see is one persons opinions.

"I know Robert Wadlow is a midget." Is it a lie or not? Who knows? It's just me saying it.

Go here to find out that I'm a liar.

Is a link to support your post so very hard to find?
Click to expand...

In other words, I gave 2 examples. You have none. My point is proven. BTW, Robert Wadlow could be a midget. Depends on how you define the term.
 
H3LL said:
I give up.

I was foolish to think that people would understand what a lie was and be able to find a link on the Internet to support the alleged lie.

My rigid constraints of: provide the information and a link are just too complex and confining for most, it would seem. No wonder the $million challenge gets criticized by the woo-woos for being too restrictive.

The above link from Kopji is more than adequate. Thank you very much for that, Kopji; much appreciated.

I quick Google for 'Kerry Lies' provided the other side.

I'm sorry the thread was unclear. My fault I suppose. I have difficulty in writing English, it seems.

The thread topic can now be considered closed, but feel free to add any other educational comments for me.
Click to expand...

Except it can be argued that none of what Kopji posted are "lies". They were Bushes opinion based upon his interpretation of available intelligence. He was not alone in that interpretation.
 
So H3ll, you learned how to search for your own information? Awwww. Who's a big boy? Huh? Who's a big boy?
 
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