Hello JREF, I bring you "Tin Foil"!

From what I can tell, Skepticguy is like an alternative historian. Not because he believes History is a lie, but for him it's somekind of intellectual fascination with alternative theories, which I think is reasonable and legitimate.

At least he is not claiming to know the "Truth", and not accusing anyone. He just seems to be curious.

Am I right Skeptiguy?


That's a very good point. And there's nothing really wrong with that, although I would take issue with assuming that the products of mere intellectual musing would indeed be proof of the validity of alternate histories; reality has a way of barging in and messing up any intellectual construct humans can come up with. But, there's nothing wrong with the excercise itself.

Let's let him have his say. There's plenty of time to debate the specifics of his arguments after he lays them out.
 
What I represent are not my ideas, but the contributions of over 100,000 members creating more than 3.5 million posts.
The key word here is "creating." In NONE of those posts is a single shred of irreputable evidence. Conversely, there's tons of out-of-context quote mining, photoshopped pictures, wildly paranoid youtube videos, and "experts" who aren't actually experts in anything resembling the fields they're writing about.

It doesn't matter if it's 10 members or a billion, opinions will never be facts regardless of how many people share them. And yes, while there are folks here that would continue to try and debunk undeniable proof of a conspiracy simply because they'd hate to have been wrong, the vast majority of us are SKEPTICS... meaning we follow the evidence.

If there was anything near equal weight to the official version and the CT version of 9/11, it would be taken into account here that the government can conceal or alter facts and more consideration would have to be given to alternate theories. But that's not the case here. SCIENCE backs up the official version, and disproves just about every twoofer CT without really having to think about it a whole lot.

I'm a reformed CT'er myself, and there's nothing harder than admitting to yourself you've been so concerned with "opening the world's eyes" you can't grasp the fact no one's are more closed than yours.

Trust nothing and no one if that's your mindset, but apply it across the board fairly, not just to those in the "power elite." When you're able to do that, that's when you realize how pathetic the company you're keeping... and how skewed your reality... really is.
 
I would take issue with assuming that the products of mere intellectual musing would indeed be proof of the validity of alternate histories;

There's an overwhelming amount of historical information that either doesn't make it into general awareness, or has simply been forgotten. In many cases, much of that "forgotten" data provides a multitude of information for those looking into the connectivity of the historical influences that provide a backdrop for contemporary conspiracy research.

If, like one poster here, you assume all conspiracy research and speculation is a mere contrivance, you're ignoring what history has proven -- there have been "conspiracies" that have been covered up. For example, right now we're converting Clifford Stone's vast archive of FOIA documents... some of which provide overviews of the analysis of captured space vessels of extraterrestrial origin. We're making sure we get this up in a way that maintains a "chain of evidence."
 
What I represent are not my ideas, but the contributions of over 100,000 members creating more than 3.5 million posts.

Why of course they're not your ideas! Why would we have thought so. Just because you said, and I quote your very words,

"But while I'm certain two passenger aircraft impacted the buildings and the resulting kinetic energy caused a great deal of structural damage, I also feel there is compelling information related to some degree of "assistance" that ensured total structural failure."

Why ever would we have thought those were your ideas?

Just as I said a few months ago. Assertion -> Retreat -> Retreat -> Retreat. Throw the accusation of mass murder, then when asked to prove it, spin and spin and spin to avoid having to offer even a single shred of evidence.

Sorry, even if you use the most courteous language possible, that's not civility. That's evil cowardice and it deserves to be called so. You do NOT want to live in a society where you can be accused of horrific crimes on the shaky, nebulous evidence you use to accuse others.
 
My biggest problem with "cover ups" is that people are just unable to keep secrets.

Any "Cover-up" theory depends upon people being able to keep a secret, and it just won't happen.

That's not to say that there isn't a great deal of history that is distorted, lost or ignored. As one professor I had used to say: "History is what you believe it to be."

and there is always room for an alternative interpetation.
 
What I represent are not my ideas, but the contributions of over 100,000 members creating more than 3.5 million posts.

If anyone would like to revive that notion with civility and decorum, I'll be pleased to see how I can help.
9/11 truth is still a bunch of lies and your analysis included crap.

The "movement" is besieged on all sides by:
5) And divisive manipulation by "gov'ment" meddling

Yes, even though I'm a skeptical critical-thinking conspiracy theorist, I have seen firm evidence to support #5, and we conspiracy folks have been documenting what has been popularized as "COINTELPRO" for decades (though that old-style term is now far too simplistic).
Show me the proof of number 5. You are as bad as the CT people.
 
There's an overwhelming amount of historical information that either doesn't make it into general awareness, or has simply been forgotten. In many cases, much of that "forgotten" data provides a multitude of information for those looking into the connectivity of the historical influences that provide a backdrop for contemporary conspiracy research.

If, like one poster here, you assume all conspiracy research and speculation is a mere contrivance, you're ignoring what history has proven -- there have been "conspiracies" that have been covered up. For example, right now we're converting Clifford Stone's vast archive of FOIA documents... some of which provide overviews of the analysis of captured space vessels of extraterrestrial origin. We're making sure we get this up in a way that maintains a "chain of evidence."

No, no, that's not my point. My point is that too many times, mere mental constructions of events, even if based in either "alternate" or "long forgotten" elements of the story often themselves are missing critical elements, and being 100% certain that the product of analysis based on different information 1. Changes the original narrative, and 2. Is closer to the truth is too much certainty to apply. Too many people are too quick to judge that an old narrative/paradigm is overturned - as is the case with the 9/11 Conspiracy "Fantasists" who frequent this board - and the evidence they present, when it's not total fantasy, is nowhere near strong enough to support such a reversal of the commonly accepted narrative, or even established individual elements of the narrative.

Basically, I'm making an epistemological argument warning against overweighing "newly discovered" or "alternate" evidence. New evidence does indeed color, shape, or even outright changes the thrust of a given narrative, but it must also be evaluated against the currently established and proven body of knowledge, and if it contradicts any part of it, it must be demonstrated why the new knowledge invalidates that element of the old paradigm. It's actually fairly rare that new knowledge completely reverses an accepted paradigm. The only example I can think of is a scientific one that has zero to do with conspiracy fantasies, and is admittedly not the best illustrative example I can come up with (but it's the only one available off the top of my head) and that's the doubt of the existence of buckminsterfullerenes (i.e. "Bucky balls"). In short, there was much argument that such a construct couldn't exist, that the energetics behind forming such an allotrope were not possible. We don't see that debate in today's cleaned-up version of its discovery, but trust me, it was there. Anyway, when irrefutable evidence was finally gathered and agreed to be accurate, that overturned the paradigm of the C60 "bucky ball" allotrope being impossible.

Granted, this does not fit the "conspiracy theory" aspect of this discussion in any way, shape, or form, but I merely use it to point out the rarity of turning over accepted paradigms in the face of new discoveries. When it happens, the evidence needs to be overwhelming enough to convince prior skeptics, such as Donald Cox, formerly of Exxon (he turned from being a doubter of the allotrope to Exxon's leading researcher on it). And it needs to be very clear, repeatable, and not only fit the current body of knowledge, but help clarify the nature of future observations.

Whereas, I can definitively point at another scientific topic - again, not conspiracy related - where it's tempting to think "newly" (at the time; this info is actually well over a decade old) discovered information overturns the validity of the original thesis, but the progression of knowledge has shown that it hasn't: Gregor Mendel's experiments demonstrating genetic inheritence. Knowing what we do now about genetics, we clearly see that he wasn't rigorously honest about his results, that he very much ignored data that should have clouded his findings. Yet, modern knowledge shows that his theories were essentially correct, despite the manipulation he committed. Nowadays, such "cheating" (I personally wouldn't go that far in characterizing Mendel's work, but I'm playing devil's advocate here) would result in many charging that the original thesis was invalid, and that alternate theories like (*shudder*) Lysenko-Michurinism should be accepted. But the progression of knowledge showed that the basis for Mendelian genetics was essentially correct, if oversimplified and not covering all possible inheritence mechanisms in spite of the active selection of favorable results.

Or in short, the "newly" (again, back then) discovered evidence, fatal as it should be on first glance, does not undo the currently accepted and proven paradigm behind Mendelian genetics. It's a blot, but not an overturning or reversal.

Please excuse the long winded explanation about my point, but I was merely pointing out that there is a problem with overly facile acceptence of alternate theories. New information cannot be discounted, but too often it is used as a cudgel to incorrectly overturn a paradigm, instead of as another datapoint in the progression of developing knowledge.
 
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and your analysis included crap.
I've seen, over and over again, that it is indeed possible to disagree without being disagreeable. If you're also able, perhaps we can have a discussion.
 
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No, no, that's not my point. My point is that too many times, mere mental constructions of events, even if based in either "alternate" or "long forgotten" elements of the story often themselves are missing critical elements,
Which is why I think it's important to find a way to foster an environment where both meaningful speculation and constructive challenges can occur between those of disparate opinions. A conspiracy theory without material dispute to test the boundaries of the theory is essentially worthless. But such disagreements don't need to be antagonistic.
 
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I've seen, over and over again, that it is indeed possible to disagree without being disagreeable. If you're also able, perhaps we can have a discussion.
Can not explain crap of #5, so you change the subject.

Where do you pick up these ways of avoiding things? Next time just say you have no proof and move on. It will look better than making up junk.
 
Which is why I think it's important to find a way to foster an environment where both meaningful speculation and constructive challenges can occur between those of disparate opinions. A conspiracy theory without material dispute to test the boundaries of the theory is essentially worthless. But such disagreements don't need to be antagonistic.
Things get antagonistic here mainly because people come in singing the same song you're singing right now, then take a moral high road about being more open-minded and enlightened than those cold-hearted government shills at JREF.

Fact is this is an educational forum, and fairy tales don't go over well here. Anyone who wants to believe in the Easter Bunny is welcome to, but when they come here, claim to have undeniable proof we're too ignorant to accept, and present evidence as staggeringly brilliant as "I guess I should believe guys in caves put eggs in my basket"... well you say antagonistic, I say "taking as seriously as they deserve to be taken."

Couple that with the fact 99% of those who come here to "make their case" never bother to do a search to find out if it's an angle we've discussed to death already, ask loaded questions then ignore the answers, and wind up accusing us of not being open to other possibilities despite the fact we've already dealt with their stupid bit of "truth" many, many times... yes, it can make us a little huffy.
 
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Can not explain crap of #5, so you change the subject.

I've not changed the subject at all. The point I made (prior to your reply) was in regards to engaging each other with civility. You injected a disagreeable tone, I responded with the idea that unless there is courtesy, there won't be a response. Sorry.
 
then take a moral high road about being more open-minded and enlightened than those cold-hearted government shills at JREF
Well, I haven't gone there, and try not to. I think it's fair to say we've had very similar run-ins with antisocial "truthers" as have been experienced here on JREF. However, we tend to disable or ban their accounts until they learn civility, rather than keep them around as intellectual play toys. ;)
 
Which is why I think it's important to find a way to foster an environment where both meaningful speculation and constructive challenges can occur between those of disparate opinions. A conspiracy theory without material dispute to test the boundaries of the theory is essentially worthless. But such disagreements don't need to be antagonistic.
9/11 truth is made up of lies. There is not any room to foster an environment where the liars can thrive spreading their idiotic lies of 9/11.

You seem to think there are opinions from 9/11 truth that have substance. You have made a mistake. Zero facts and evidence to support any conclusion of 9/11 truth. The entire 9/11 truth movement is worthless and they are fraudulent liars. Spewing lies about 9/11 and making UBL smile at the idiots spreading lies. You can mollycoddle the liars, be nice, you are unable to figure out 9/11 also, as you sit on the fence with #5. You have no facts to support some of your ideas on 9/11. You support the liars, are you 1/5 truther, your evil gobermint ideas are pure paranoid bs. No wonder you are making a plea for the idiots of 9/11 truth.
 
I've not changed the subject at all. The point I made (prior to your reply) was in regards to engaging each other with civility. You injected a disagreeable tone, I responded with the idea that unless there is courtesy, there won't be a response. Sorry.
Just tell the truth, you have no fact to support your opinion. Zero stuff.

So you ban the bad guys. Guess you would ban your football coach when he yells at you; please stop being mean to me, I will ban you! Do not be mean, I can not lie to you if you yell at me. Please be nice boss, or I will ban you. I determined by your tone you are being mean, so you are banned teacher! Do not come back. There. I wil not keep play toys around my forum of ...

ban their accounts until they learn civility
I have learned, but how do I tell you? Is this like, if the Witch does not drown she is a witch, but if she drowns, she is not kind of thing? Catch22. I had a Civic once.

From the OP
I've seen a lot of misconceptions about "conspiracy theorists" (sometimes we're our own worst enemy) and hope I can help to at least shed some rational light on the subject.
You make up rules so you do not have to respond when you are short on facts; I declare you are not civil, so I have no fact for you! Your have failed to show there are any misconceptions on the liars of 9/11 truth, you call CTs. So?
 
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I've not changed the subject at all. The point I made (prior to your reply) was in regards to engaging each other with civility. You injected a disagreeable tone, I responded with the idea that unless there is courtesy, there won't be a response. Sorry.

Could you please explain to us how the government meddled, and what exactly their COINTELPRO consisted of? If you can provide hard facts and evidence too that would be great.
 
Could you please stop arguing over whether or not you are arguing, and actually address the topic?
 
9/11 truth is made up of lies. There is not any room to foster an environment where the liars can thrive spreading their idiotic lies of 9/11.

Exactly. Coddle lies over at ATS all you want, because without them there'd be no reason to post there.

We're both on the Internet, but that's the only thing our place in yours have in common. I'm not hugging someone who spouts idiocy, lies and deceit and tell them "you and I see things differently, but that doesn't make your opinion any less valid." That's bullrule10, and being "civil" about it only allows it fester.

It's not that we're a-holes, we simply call a spade a spade.
 
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