Hello JREF, I bring you "Tin Foil"!

There is a mountain of material for any angle you want to take on the subject. What most skeptics of conspiracy theory, and 9/11 Truthers, both don't understand... is that it's possible for the events to have occurred, to have been perpetrated by fundamentalist terrorists, to actually involve passenger aircraft, yet still be guided to happen by subtle covert maneuverings by a limited circle of people in dark corners of mysterious government agencies.

I wonder where this mountain of material is hidden. You are making up the idea of some tall tale and have no evidence.

Where is the mountain of material? And how do you support your CT?

So far you only have talk. Facts would really help you but you have no facts. Any experts to help you?
 
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Top "conspiracies" I feel have merrit:
1- The Roswell UFO incident was a cold-war propaganda campaign
2- Regan did negotiate with Iranian terrorists
3- Northwoods would have gone forward if not for Kennedy
4- Gulf of Tonkin was fabricated
5- Perl Harbor was "allowed" to be attacked
6- My socks are being stolen by intelligent dust bunnies in the dryer
(bolding mine)

Some comments. Undoubtedly, FDR wanted to provoke Germany into open war with us. He (FDR) wasn't even really trying to hide that. Hell, from what I remember it was an American recon plane that spotted the Bismarck in her short-lived career as a commerce raider. Hitler, however, was too smart to be goaded into widening the war with the USA. He had much too much on his plate - and there was always the past history of World War I to reflect upon.

War with Japan - I don't see FDR courting that. And for Pearl Harbor - it would have been much more effective, from a foreknowledge perspective, to have the American carriers in position to intercept before Nagumo's strike force (under Yamamoto's command) raided Pearl. I don't see FDR leaving Pearl Harbor wide open for defenseless attack.

PBS had an American Experience special on FDR, quite interesting. His staff reported how visibly shaken - physically shaken - FDR was after the attack. That he had difficulty putting coherent sentences together. And for someone as glib as FDR (as opposed to George Bush), that's telling. His butler was interviewed in this special, and he reports how emotionally shaken FDR was after receiving the news, that he was lamenting about how he'd go down as the worst president ever. I think we basically got caught with our pants down on Pearl Harbor. Ignored the signs, the warnings, the indications, the intentions. Very much like 9/11.
 
I bring "tin foil".

Hello JREF people.

I come to you from an often-mentioned (rarely favorably) site, AboveTopSecret.com, as your friendly neighborhood skeptically-minded ambassador from the land of conspiracy theory.

I've seen a lot of misconceptions about "conspiracy theorists" (sometimes we're our own worst enemy) and hope I can help to at least shed some rational light on the subject.

If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to do what I can... otherwise, I'll poke around a bit.

-Skeptic

Hey, are you the one who wrote this?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1
 
So these people in shadows pulling invisible strings to make the puppet men dance, who are they?

How do they make the world behave the way they want?

Do they ever disagree with each other?

Does it make more sense to think that everything is under control, or that just maybe the world is actually as it appears and that these invisible string pullers are illusions created by complexity?

Aren't you just finding patterns in chaos?

ETA: Oh yeah and where's my tinfoil? My dinner neads reheating.
 
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Still, I think that there is terminology-confusion here. What is a "CT" and how does he/she differes from anyone interested in say US History? If "Reagan did negotiate with Iran" is a conspiracy theory we might as well call anyone remotely interested in US foreign policy a CT. I believe that the US gave money to the resistance in Afganistan during the Soviet-era, including elements that was or became Al Quaida. Does that make me a CT? I believe we dont know everything that went on between US and Soviet, am I a CT?

Or am I just not that fluent in english (it is after all not my mother tongue)?

Cheers,
SLOB
 
SkepticGuy..

If you can name one individual on who you have evidence on, who would it be? And if you can, why are you here instead of taking them to court?

This is what seperates the fake conspriacies to the real ones, like the WaterGate. Watergate bought the government to it's knees and cleaned itself up. It involved real arrests and the resignation of Nixion. You know why? Because they had real evidence that could've be used in the court of law.
 
(bolding mine)

Some comments. Undoubtedly, FDR wanted to provoke Germany into open war with us. He (FDR) wasn't even really trying to hide that. Hell, from what I remember it was an American recon plane that spotted the Bismarck in her short-lived career as a commerce raider.


It was a PBY Catalina from 209 SQN, (Coastal Command) RAF.

-Gumboot
 
If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to do what I can...
-SkepticGuy
DO you believe that an airliner hit each of the twin towers on September 11, 2001, after and as a result of which impact and the resulting fires, the buildings fell down? Or do you think something else brought the buildings down?

If your belief is the second, would you PLEASE tell me what in the h3ll is "wrong" with the way the buildings fell that makes you think they were not brought down by airplanes/fire?

If SkepticGuy doesn't answer this, would one of the JREF members who have been at this for a while please explain to me what the reasons are that the CTers give for believing that controlled demolition, guided missiles, or little green men caused the towers to fall? And how could anyone say what the "right" way is for a 110-story building to fall after being struck by an airliner? It's not like we have tons of precedent to use for comparison. It had never happened before, and hasn't happened again since.

I have tried to read some of the CT websites but they don't make any sense. I'm not asking for a complete reconstruction of the CT worldview, just a sort of summary of what they think their "points" are.

Thanks!
 
Hell, from what I remember it was an American recon plane that spotted the Bismarck in her short-lived career as a commerce raider.
It was spotted by British airmen flying an American-made Catalina flying boat sent to Britain under the Lend-Lease program. I just saw a show about the Bsmarck a few weeks ago!

eta: as usual in these things, gumboot beat me to it.
 
It was spotted by British airmen flying an American-made Catalina flying boat sent to Britain under the Lend-Lease program. I just saw a show about the Bsmarck a few weeks ago!

eta: as usual in these things, gumboot beat me to it.


It's the timezone thing. :p

-Gumboot
 
<snip>
I have tried to read some of the CT websites but they don't make any sense. I'm not asking for a complete reconstruction of the CT worldview, just a sort of summary of what they think their "points" are.

Thanks!

Well I'm no expert, but:

1) Larry Silverstein (WTC Lease holder) is Jewish.
2) Kerosene soaked paper burning in a rabbit cage won't make it collapse.
3) Muslims live in caves and therefore can't fly airplanes.
4) If a building collapses vertically it must be a controlled demolition.
5) George Bush is evil (possibly a crypto jew).

I don't pretend it makes any sense, but neither do they.
 
Don't forget :

6) Some of the hijackers are alive. But if they're not, they were murdered as part of the coverup.
7) Some people who may or may not have been Jewish might have been acting odd on 9/11/2001
8) Space beam weapons of doom shot down the cargo plane that flew over the Pentagon before scattering fake debris over a field, but not before it had the chance to fire missiles at WTC7.
9) In the moments after a plane didn't hit the pentagon, hundreds of invisible workers (who were just doing their job and therefore not being accused of conspiracy to commit murder) smashed a bunch of light poles that were nowhere near the airplane that didn't hit the pentagon.
10) = 1 + 0.
 
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It was spotted by British airmen flying an American-made Catalina flying boat sent to Britain under the Lend-Lease program. I just saw a show about the Bsmarck a few weeks ago!

eta: as usual in these things, gumboot beat me to it.
Apparently an American pilot, Lt. Leonard Smith, was aboard that plane that spotted Bismarck. Bismarck fired at her, and the plane took shrapnel hits.

Story here:
http://159.54.226.200/story.php?f=1-292308-1673961.php
 
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I was under the impression that ATS was declining in activity. Doesn't appear to be any where near as active s when I used to post there.
 
No... that's a different member, who was actually, unfortunately banned for some improper behavior about a year after that original post. My name on the site is "SkepticOverlord".


So these people in shadows pulling invisible strings to make the puppet men dance, who are they?
Now you're either just being silly, or trying to poke sticks at the latest caged rate. The line at the top of your forum contains: "a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way".

Does it make more sense to think that everything is under control,
Hrm... it seemed like a lot of people thought it made sense to believe the administration's original reasons for invading Iraq. As it turns out, there were plans to focus on Iraq before 9/11 and the rationale sold to the UN and US people was certainly not under control. If something as important and far-reach as that was manipulated for the benefit of the "military industrial complex", what else is? How deep does it go? When did it start? What else is being manipulated? These reactions to falsehoods from our government are born of skepticism.


If "Reagan did negotiate with Iran" is a conspiracy theory we might as well call anyone remotely interested in US foreign policy a CT.
Not quite. He negotiated with Iranian terrorists who were holding American's hostage, and the nature of the negotiations were not focused on their release. Before the confirming data came out, people who chased this story were considered "conspiracy theorists", until the data was confirmed.


If you can name one individual on who you have evidence on, who would it be? And if you can, why are you here instead of taking them to court?
*I* don't have any, for as I said, my focus is much more as an enabler of conspiracy theorists, taking a back seat to many who are more diligent than I am.

This is what seperates the fake conspriacies to the real ones, like the WaterGate. Watergate bought the government to it's knees and cleaned itself up. It involved real arrests and the resignation of Nixion. You know why? Because they had real evidence that could've be used in the court of law.
Yes, but before Woodward and Bernstein put the nails in the coffin, they were considered "conspiracy theorists" and took a great deal of heat for being so. I'm by no means attempting to compare any contemporary posters on ATS to these excellent journalists, only show how perception changes as the facts bear out.


DO you believe that an airliner hit each of the twin towers on September 11, 2001, after and as a result of which impact and the resulting fires, the buildings fell down? Or do you think something else brought the buildings down?
Yes, certainly I believe so... I was there in the city... my sons volunteered at ground zero... I regularly helped out at relief centers... I spoke with people in the recovery effort... I know people who lost close friends and loved ones... I consoled one such person that morning.

But while I'm certain two passenger aircraft impacted the buildings and the resulting kinetic energy caused a great deal of structural damage, I also feel there is compelling information related to some degree of "assistance" that ensured total structural failure.


would you PLEASE tell me what in the h3ll is "wrong" with the way the buildings fell that makes you think they were not brought down by airplanes/fire
The two three that continue to stand out in my mind, specific to the collapse are:

1) The "squibs" at the sky-lobby level preceding the collapse by several floors... there are lots of explanations for these anomalies, but if you've ever been in the sky lobbies, the air-pressure explanation doesn't make sense... especially as the collapse is happening above.

2) The speed of the collapse... while not as fast as free fall, it's not much slower either.

3) The multi-source reports of explosions in the basement levels moments before the collapse started. At first I dismissed these, but the more I looked into it, the more it adds to a disturbing data set.

And a further point... I was in a pool league with several construction workers who were clearing out the debris. Even then, with little or no online "conspiracy theory" madness, these "regular Joes" were amazed at how there was no attempt to preserve that they felt was important evidence... even if it was to simply understand what failed and how. (I didn't pester them with conspiracy theories, after all we were drinking beers and shooting pool).


I was under the impression that ATS was declining in activity. Doesn't appear to be any where near as active s when I used to post there.
Actually, January was a record-breaking month for us... over 1.4 million unique visitors, and so far February might break that.

We had quite a run with information on the UFO at O'Hare.
 
And now we get to the meat and potatoes...

But while I'm certain two passenger aircraft impacted the buildings and the resulting kinetic energy caused a great deal of structural damage, I also feel there is compelling information related to some degree of "assistance" that ensured total structural failure.


The two three that continue to stand out in my mind, specific to the collapse are:

1) The "squibs" at the sky-lobby level preceding the collapse by several floors... there are lots of explanations for these anomalies, but if you've ever been in the sky lobbies, the air-pressure explanation doesn't make sense... especially as the collapse is happening above.

2) The speed of the collapse... while not as fast as free fall, it's not much slower either.

3) The multi-source reports of explosions in the basement levels moments before the collapse started. At first I dismissed these, but the more I looked into it, the more it adds to a disturbing data set.

And a further point... I was in a pool league with several construction workers who were clearing out the debris. Even then, with little or no online "conspiracy theory" madness, these "regular Joes" were amazed at how there was no attempt to preserve that they felt was important evidence... even if it was to simply understand what failed and how. (I didn't pester them with conspiracy theories, after all we were drinking beers and shooting pool).


Before we start discussing these particulars, I'd like to know if you've perhaps read the NIST report on the towers? It would be helpful to know if you have.
 
The two three that continue to stand out in my mind, specific to the collapse are:


I can address these.



1) The "squibs" at the sky-lobby level preceding the collapse by several floors... there are lots of explanations for these anomalies, but if you've ever been in the sky lobbies, the air-pressure explanation doesn't make sense... especially as the collapse is happening above.


I start to itch whenever anyone says "squib". You do know what a squib is, right? I don't feel like addressing this matter further until this question is answered.


2) The speed of the collapse... while not as fast as free fall, it's not much slower either.


Two questions:
1) What do you believe the collapse time was of each of the towers?
2) What do you believe would be a realistic and acceptable collapse time for each tower, to conform with the NIST account of why they collapsed?
3) How did you come to the answer in (2)?


3) The multi-source reports of explosions in the basement levels moments before the collapse started. At first I dismissed these, but the more I looked into it, the more it adds to a disturbing data set.


The reports of explosions in the basements were not from "moments before the collapse started". They were from the moment of impact. Said same reports originate on dozens on floors from the very top to the very bottom of both towers. Every single account relates to the elevator shafts, or the experience was placed in the proximity of the elevator shafts. Many accounts include details specific to an organic fuel explosion. These accounts of jet fuel from the aircraft spilling down elevator shafts and igniting.



And a further point... I was in a pool league with several construction workers who were clearing out the debris. Even then, with little or no online "conspiracy theory" madness, these "regular Joes" were amazed at how there was no attempt to preserve that they felt was important evidence... even if it was to simply understand what failed and how.


Are you aware of the enormous sorting and forensic operation that was undertaken at Fresh Kills? Are you aware of the materials gathered by NIST in order to do tests on the steel from the buildings?

-Gumboot
 
I better know what "squib" is...

I start to itch whenever anyone says "squib". You do know what a squib is, right? I don't feel like addressing this matter further until this question is answered.

I had some for dinner last night. It was in this seafood stew I bought - pretty good, for prepackaged microwave stuff.
 
The two three that continue to stand out in my mind, specific to the collapse are:

1) The "squibs" at the sky-lobby level preceding the collapse by several floors... there are lots of explanations for these anomalies, but if you've ever been in the sky lobbies, the air-pressure explanation doesn't make sense... especially as the collapse is happening above.
And the mechanical equipment floors adjacent to the sky lobbies? Direct vents to the exterior. Simple.

2) The speed of the collapse... while not as fast as free fall, it's not much slower either.
And your problem with that is? (Please source calculations, not personal incredulity.)

3) The multi-source reports of explosions in the basement levels moments before the collapse started. At first I dismissed these, but the more I looked into it, the more it adds to a disturbing data set.
Someone was in the basement and survived the collapses? I'm not aware of any such thing happening. :con2: Sources, please!

Anyway, the collapses obviously began at the impact floors.

It sounds to me like you're simply not well-informed about events at the WTC on 9/11. We'll correct that if you stick around.
 

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