Hello from nineeleven.co.uk

I agree with you on PM, I don't think people should be calling them 'shills' (I do however wonder why they refuse to acknoweldge the size of the whole in the pentagon being much smaller before a section of the wall fell down).


Probably because it wasn't.

My suggestion was probably lost in the thread, so I'll make it again. To aide clarity, I suggest you create a thread about a particular aspect of 9/11 that you find especially important/unanswered/suspicious etc... Then people can discuss this particular topic with you, and prevent the discussion diverting into off-topic subjects. It helps to make things concise and easier to follow.

-Gumboot
 
My suggestion was probably lost in the thread, so I'll make it again. To aide clarity, I suggest you create a thread about a particular aspect of 9/11 that you find especially important/unanswered/suspicious etc... Then people can discuss this particular topic with you, and prevent the discussion diverting into off-topic subjects. It helps to make things concise and easier to follow.

Are suggesting that we sometimes careen wildly off topic sometimes? :eye-poppi

The nerve!
 
Are suggesting that we sometimes careen wildly off topic sometimes? :eye-poppi

The nerve!


Actually it's more to lock the Troofers down so they can't careen wildly off topic..., but if I went out and actually said it like that they'd never heed my advice...

Game of wack-a-mole anyone?

-Gumboot
 
theres a lot of points to discuss here and i'm not going to be able to debate them all at once. I might attempt to debate them one at a time with you guys in the near future (i'd be interested to know why johndoexs calculations are wrong but i will check the other threads on here for that).

This is the thread you need to check for thr FDR stuff: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66047

also:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65369
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65819

Also, this thread offers some perspective on box-cutters:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59410

This on ISI and Atta:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66863
http://911myths.com/html/pakistan_s_isi_link_to_9_11_fu.html

A NORAD timeline:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61752

also, to give you an idea of the volume of air traffic in the US:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67952

Able Danger:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66189

On PNAC:

http://911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html

Edited to add: I'm posting these links here so you can reasearch some of the arguments already put forward - I'm not expecting you to talk about them in this thread. I think Gumboot's suggestion of starting a new thread for something that particularly interests you and keeping that thread on topic is an excellent one. Alternatively, you could post new questions in one of the threads above.
 
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Game of wack-a-mole anyone?

That actually brings up a good point for new members who support a 911 CT.

Probably the worst thing a troother can do when he or she comes on this board is start a thread with a baseless accusation or piece of evidence, and then start another thread without answering the rebuttals of the first thread.

It's annoying.
 
Unfortunately...

the problem with 9/11 cultists is They ask questions but

1) Know the answers in advance of any evidence

2) Don't know what evidence is anyway

3) When caught out move onto something else

4) Want other people to do the investigating for them

5) ..then reject conclusions they don't like

6) Go round in circles

(and so on)
 
But I find there to be too many co-incidences in the official story for it to be as simple as an isolated terrorist attack organised by bin laden. I think the PNAC rebuilding americas defence document carries weight in establishing that the neo-cons had a motive. And the fact that an independent inquiry was only established due to pressure from the victims families, suspect individuals were appointed to head the enquiry (henry kissinger, Phillip D. Zelikow), much evidence has been blocked or dismissed by the commission (in some cases destroyed by the pentagon.. ie. able danger) and that the self admitted purpose of the investigation was "not to assign blame to individuals for 9/11"... are a remarkable set of co-incidences if no one in the establishment had a hand in causing the events to happen. If people in the establishment did cause them to happen in some way, it makes perfect sense.

I don't think you quite understand what a coincidence is; you need two somewhat unlikely but highly related events together to make a coincidence. Is it unlikely that the administration would resist a commission to place blame on individuals for failing to stop 9-11? Is it unlikely that when forced to create a commission by public pressure that the government would put people it trusted on that commission?

Able Danger appears to be a bunch of hooey; I read the report and you would have to believe in the most unlikely events in order to believe that it had identified Atta. For example, one man claims to have had a chart with photos of Able Danger-identified men including Atta on his office wall for several years and often showed it to people, post-9-11. And yet he could come up with no people who recalled seeing Atta. Is that likely, considering that Atta's face is probably one of the most recognized in America today? He also claimed that when he tried to take down the chart to move to a new office, that the chart "disintegrated". Is that likely for a chart made of (say) 5-year-old paper?

The weight of these co-incidences is backed up by another set of unusual events on the day which for me includes the incredible collapse of WTC7, the Pakistani ISI wire transfer, the NORAD standdown and contridictory blackbox/video data concerning flight 77, the passport falling out of the plane onto the street intact and handed to a police officer by an 'anonomous 30 year old male in a suit', curt weldons testimony that the able danger group had information on the hijackers that was deliberately isolated from other agencies, the death of John O'Neil at the WTC on 9/11, the put options linked to Buzzy Crongards firm, Bush's erie 'Let us not tolerate conspiracy theories concerning the events of 9/11' speech and the record number of terror drills taking place that day(some involving hijacked jets) which caused confusion and slowed response times . If all these events are innocent co-incidences then it really is the greatest most amazing series of co-incidences in history.

Again, almost none of these are coincidences, with the arguable exception of John O'Neill. Let's see, the World Trade Center hires a man who was directly responsible for the apprehension of a terrorist who launched an attack on that building complex? Is that an unlikely event?

Is it unlikely that there would be a "30-year-old male in a suit" in downtown Manhattan? Is it unlikely that Bush would get annoyed at the conspiracy theories (assuming for the moment that he was not behind it)? How do you know that the "terror" drills were "a record number"? What is an average day's worth of terror drills?

Others have addressed the ISI connection. The Buzzy Krongard connection? How likely is it that a commission made up equally of Democrats and Republicans would ignore this if there were anything there? The NORAD "standdown" doesn't exist; try reading the recent Vanity Fair article on this topic and you'll discover that the most warning that NEADS (a division of NORAD) had of a hijacked airliner before it crashed was 7 minutes, and that was for Flight 11, the first plane into the WTC.

I'm guessing you guys feel that this is inconclusive, and perhaps it is. It is my opinion and is probably influenced by my political thoughts and feelings on human rights and what I think the globalists are capable of. i'm not going to demand that you subscribe to my own beleifs. But I have to say that I think the belief that 9/11 was an isolated alkaeda attack, carried out with no foreknoweldge is one based on very weak evidence. I also think that to defend the position that 9/11 needs no further investigation is a decision of poor judgement, or corrupt intentions.

Obviously 9/11 was not an isolated Al Qaeda attack; just look at Zacharias Moussaoui for confirmation. He was training to be a pilot but not a 9-11 pilot; they intended to do this again. Al Qaeda has pulled attacks before and since--the embassy bombings in Africa, the Bali nightclub bombing, the Madrid trains bombing and (arguably) the 7/7 attacks in London.
 
Obviously 9/11 was not an isolated Al Qaeda attack; just look at Zacharias Moussaoui for confirmation. He was training to be a pilot but not a 9-11 pilot; they intended to do this again. Al Qaeda has pulled attacks before and since--the embassy bombings in Africa, the Bali nightclub bombing, the Madrid trains bombing and (arguably) the 7/7 attacks in London.

Not to mention Dhiren Barot who has just been sentenced in the UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6123236.stm
 
For the 8 millionth time (this is why we need an FAQ)

WRT to the Pentagon Hole:

Entrance hole: approximately 90 feet wide at first floor level. Approximately 12-18 feet wide at second floor level.

Exit Hole: approximately 12 feet diameter, later likely excised to a diameter of 16 feet to allow for rescue/recovery work.

TAM
 
Is it unlikely that there would be a "30-year-old male in a suit" in downtown Manhattan?

Ah yes, profiling, through the eyes of CT wing nut! Claiming this as suspicious only adds to the evidence that the CTers have never left the confines of their parents basement, and out into the real world.

It's about a mile walk for me from the Ogilvie train station to my office in downtown Chicago. During my walks both to and from work I pass by an alarming amount of males in "suits". Come to think of it, I also see a lot of males in "suits" in my office building. Should I report them?
 
it was more the anonymous part i found suspicious, combined with the unlikely hood of the passport making its way down from the cockpit of the plane to the street, to be found by someone and handed it admist all the chaos that was going on.
 
then they haven't looked at all the evidence. The 911 commssion hasn't investigated the link between the pakistani ISI and Mohammed Atta. An organisation that is well known to support terrorists. This is one thing that needs investigating further.
Before this spirals into another long-winded dialogue about specifics. Basically there are five things to consider here:
  1. There was a clear connection between invading Iraq and resources, like all invasions and wars, historically, that made it a priority.
  2. The Bush administration has used the attacks and "terrorism" unceasingly as justification for the invasion, despite the obvious fact that it would antagonize terrorism.
  3. The invasion was not based on evidence or any mutual thinking, it was based on vested interest. This implies corruption. The kind of corruption that sells conspiracy books. It was then sold as a noble, humanitarian effort, which few people believe now. Even Bill O'Reilly has admitted this wasn't the primary reason.
  4. There is currently no evidence the attacks were allowed, supervised, or involved by a connected group of individuals or organizations with vested geopolitical interests. However, that doesn't potential for that degree of corruption doesn't exist; quite the contrary, and let's keep in mind a very important thing..
  5. Roughly 600,000 people, many civilians, have died in Iraq, and not one person in that administration seems perturbed over it.
 
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it was more the anonymous part i found suspicious, combined with the unlikely hood of the passport making its way down from the cockpit of the plane to the street, to be found by someone and handed it admist all the chaos that was going on.

How unlikely is that a passport like this would make it's way down to the street? How many passports were found on the street totally?

That seems to me to be the most unlikely part. However, given that a passport fell like this on the street, what are chances it would be found by someone who would give to the authorities anonymously? That sounds pretty likely to me, given the events of the day.

Someone finds it, says, "hey, policeman, I found this!" The cop takes it and says thanks, and then goes on to other work.

The conditional probability of this type of thing happening is very high, I would think.
 
it was more the anonymous part i found suspicious, combined with the unlikely hood of the passport making its way down from the cockpit of the plane to the street, to be found by someone and handed it admist all the chaos that was going on.

How unlikely is it, though? Lots of documents survived the entire impact, fire and collapse, so why not this one? Add in the fact that passports are made of higher quality materials than just office paper, and it's even more likely to survive.

A passpost is a fairly distinctive document. I think lots of people would realize that identifying people from the planes or impact floors would be difficult, and so would likely pick up a passport if they saw it, so as to assist in IDing a person. To do this, it would have to be turned it to someone in authority, and why not the closest police officer?

Heck, I've turned things into the police or security gaurds, and it wasn't even terror-related.
 
I'm confused as to why anybody with any knowledge of history and with even a minute amount of perspective would think that 911, like any other major historical event in history, wouldn't be chock full of 'anomalies' and 'coincidences'?

Looked at with the same manic, paranoid, microscopic scrutiny that 911 is by CTs, I would wonder how many other major events would also be declared fake or conspiracies?
 
it was more the anonymous part i found suspicious, combined with the unlikely hood of the passport making its way down from the cockpit of the plane to the street, to be found by someone and handed it admist all the chaos that was going on.

As has been pointed out many times here on the forum, what you expect is often quite different from the reality of the situation. Do you find the story below suspicious? Not one, not two, but all three CDs survived the explosion and were found! :eye-poppi

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/print.php?what=article&id=243

Columbia broke up over Texas upon re-entry on February 1, 2003, after a successful 16-day scientific research mission. The accident claimed the lives of its seven crew members: commander Rick Husband, pilot Willie McCool, mission specialist Michael Anderson, mission specialist Dave Brown, mission specialist Laurel Clark, mission specialist Kalpana Chawla and payload specialist Ilan Ramon.
Chawla, a native of India where Deep Purple is extremely popular, loved the band. She traded e-mails with the band for several days while in space. Chawla took three CDs on board Columbia: Deep Purple's landmark 1972 album "Machine Head" and 1996's "Purpendicular" and Rainbow's 1978 album "Down to Earth" (Glover and Airey were both members of Rainbow at the time).
While in space, Chawla liked to wake up to Deep Purple's "Space Truckin' " from "Machine Head".
The band members were horrified and deeply saddened by Columbia's fate, and Morse immediately channeled his emotions into composing "Contact Lost" within one hour of the accident. Morse is donating his "Contact Lost" songwriting royalties to the families of the astronauts.
The CD copies of "Machine Head", "Purpendicular" and "Down to Earth" were found among the Columbia debris. NASA used them as part of special commemorative plaques honoring the seven astronauts. Chawla's widower, Jean-Pierre Harrison, has kept in touch with Morse and he presented the three plaques to Deep Purple on stage at a concert on September 23, 2003, in Mexico City, Mexico (PHOTO). The plan is to donate the "Machine Head" and "Down to Earth" plaques to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum. The "Purpendicular" plaque is being kept privatel
mexico-nasa-fernando-aceves.jpg

Was the Columbia disaster just a conspiracy to resurrect the flagging career of British heavy metal pioneers Deep Purple? I mean come on, they found not one, not two, but all three CDs?! What are the odds of that? One in 19 billion? Sounds like a conspiracy to me!
How about this doozy!
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts10...rms_030501.html
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) _ Hundreds of worms from a science experiment aboard the space shuttle Columbia have been found alive in the wreckage, NASA said Wednesday.
The worms, known as C. elegans, were found in debris in Texas several weeks ago. Technicians sorting through the debris at Kennedy Space Center in Florida didn't open the containers of worms and dead moss cells until this week.
All seven astronauts were killed when the shuttle disintegrated over Texas on Feb. 1. Columbia contained almost 60 scientific investigations.
``To my knowledge, these are the only live experiments that have been located and identified,'' said Bruce Buckingham, a NASA spokesman at the Kennedy Space Center.
The worms and moss were in the same nine-pound locker located in the mid-deck of the space shuttle. The worms were placed in six canisters, each holding eight petri dishes.
The worms, which are about the size of the tip of a pencil, were part of an experiment testing a new synthetic nutrient solution. The worms, which have a life cycle of between seven and 10 days, were four or five generations removed from the original worms placed on Columbia in January.
The C. elegans are primitive organisms that share many biological characteristics of humans. In 1999, C. elegans became the first multicellular organism to have the sequencing of its genome completed.
C. elegans have two sexes: males and hermaphrodites, which are females that produce sperm. A hermaphrodite worm can self-fertilize for the first 300 or so eggs but later usually prefers to accept sperm from males to produce a larger number of offspring.
The experiment was put together by researchers at the NASA Ames Research Center in California.
The moss, known as Ceratodon, was used to study how gravity affects cell organization. During Columbia's flight, shuttle commander Rick Husband sprayed the moss with a chemical that destroyed protein fiber. He also sprayed the moss with formaldehyde to preserve it. Seven of the eight aluminum canisters holding the moss were recovered.
The experiment was put together by an Ames Research Center researcher and Dr. Fred Sack at Ohio State University.
``The cells were surprisingly well-preserved, but we're analyzing how useful it's going to be,'' Sack said.
NASA officials said they don't know if the worms will still have any scientific value since they were supposed to have been examined and unloaded from Columbia within hours of landing
``It's pretty astonishing to get the possibility of data after all that has happened,'' Sack said. ``We never expected it. We expected a molten mass.''

What about this odd "coincidence". What are the odds of a plane crashing into a high rise in the same city and again the pilot's passport manages to fall the ground, relatively unscathed, to be scooped up by an anonymous source? I'm not sure if this guy was a man in a suit.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15223650/

.....A passport belonging to Lidle, an avid pilot who got his flying license after last year's offseason, was reportedly found on the street below the crash site......
 
  1. Roughly 600,000 people, many civilians, have died in Iraq, and not one person in that administration seems perturbed over it.

That's only off by about 1000%, but hey, no amount of exaggeration is too much when talking about the evil Bush!
 
Yes, we accuse the CTers of enough exaggeration, we do not need to be guilty of it ourselves.

Current Civilian Death toll of Iraq War = 45,000 to 55,000

For min/max, go here:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

TAM
 
the problem with 9/11 cultists is They ask questions but

1) Know the answers in advance of any evidence

2) Don't know what evidence is anyway

3) When caught out move onto something else

4) Want other people to do the investigating for them

5) ..then reject conclusions they don't like

6) Go round in circles

(and so on)
1) Why ask questions if you don't know the answers? That would be too confusing.
:c2:

2) I know what it ain't, buddy!

3) And your point is?

4) Well isn't that the way the world works for most trust-fund babies?

5) I told you, it's too confusing to not already know the answers!

6) :thanks
 

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