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Hello from a non-skeptic

I used to make a distinction between willfully ignorant/honestly mistaken/crazy and deliberate shills. However, consider this: If I go around saying that I'm the Queen of England, that is not the truth. The fact that I'm clinically insane and truly believe that I'm the Queen of England does not make it any less of a lie. Whether I'm trying to convince people that I'm the Queen because I'm trying to scam people or because I'm crazy, it doesn't make my claim any more truthful. It's still a lie, no matter what my reason is for saying it.

The fact that Charles Boden genuinely believes that he's both descended from royalty and reincarnated from royalty doesn't make it true. It bears noting that in writing his epic tome, he's attempted to capitalize on his false claim.
In all your examples I may choose to refute the claim, but the manner in which I do so may vary based on many factors, not least of which is the apparent mindset of the person making the untrue claim. If the person is legitimately deluded I may act in a manner that does not reinforce the delusion but I won't deride the person himself whereas if th e person is an out-and-out swindler then my approach will be far less reserved.

The fact that the current interaction is electronic does not remove those distinctions.
 
After some discussion within the Mod Team, this thread has been re-opened and placed in Moderated Status pending a culling of Rule 0, 11, 12 breaches.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar


ETA: I went back about 3 pages and moved what seemed to be off-topic or otherwise didn't belong to AAH. If your post was moved, and you disagree, you are welcome to PM me to discuss. With this done, I've removed this thread from Moderated Status....and ask that EVERYONE keep in mind your Membership Agreement, especially Rule 0, Rule 11 and Rule 12.
Posted By: Locknar
 
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I had written a review of the eight pages of Charles' book that are available to the public when this thread was closed. Of course I lost it, and now have reconstructed it for your viewing pleasure.

A Review of Descendant of Kings by Charles Boden said:
The book opens with an approximately page-and-a-half long apologetic section that goes a long way towards convincing the reader that perhaps, if the author feels that their own work is so appalling, one shouldn't read it at all. For instance, he says:
Charles Boden said:
Quite certainly, most will not believe in these events. Many will shun them, some might even attempt to ridicule them, and in our eternal disbelief yet others will disregard them believing in the scientific knowledge of their own scepticism or in the blind interpretation of the dogmas and doctrines of their own religious faith.
Now, the problem with a quote like this one is that, not only does it insult nearly everyone on the spectrum between strong skeptic and strong theist, but it also tells the reader what one should think of the book before the book has even really begun. The reader might be forgiven for taking umbrage and ceasing to read it based on the second paragraph alone. Don't give up though, gentle reader, there's more!

Boden goes on to further confuse the reader by stating that his anecdotes are not a source of pride, but sadness, and somehow also a source of comfort at the same time, and that his reason for writing the story is "not to convince, but to share." Considering the fact that he's managed to insult 2/3rds of his audience and tell the other 1/3rd what they should think of his work, one wonders who he intended to "share" this with. He then goes on to make quite an interesting statement:
Charles Boden said:
The historical significance of what is contained within this story, rather than a factor that might help to evidence it, will on the contrary most probably be used as an argument against it.
How remarkably prescient! In case the prose is a bit too clumsy for you, he is saying that history, rather than backing his assertions, will be more likely to be used as evidence that his assertions are incorrect. If this is Mr. Boden's belief, one wonders why he didn't amend his assertions in order to better match with recorded history? And since he didn't amend his assertions, is it his claim that recorded history is wrong, and his assertions are correct? Perhaps he'd have been better served by categorizing his work as fiction rather than fact, if he believes that it contradicts known history.

After the Apologia, Mr. Boden goes on to wax philosophical about the wonder of the universe. Hidden within the purplest of prose is this comment:
Charles Boden said:
...to this day, science and its scientists have failed to answer our most basic and fundamental questions, the questions that have always baffled humankind: Why are we here? What is the true purpose of our existence? Where do we come from and where are we headed to?
Mr. Boden's disappointment with science appears to be based on his basic misunderstanding of what types of questions science addresses. The majority of his questions are a matter of philosophy and, being unfalsifiable, are not in the purview of science at all. However, science has addressed the question "Where do we come from?" quite extensively with the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution. Science has not failed to answer the other questions, but rather, has never addressed them at all, since they are not the type of questions that are answerable with scientific study. Mr. Boden finishes off this section by imagining what primitive man thought about things.

Finally, the book actually begins in the middle of page 3 with some autobiographical data about Mr. Boden and the lyrics of Charlie is my Darling, which was not popularized until after Bonnie Prince Charlie's death. The book goes on to share some of Mr. Boden's "visions" that he has interpreted to be past-life data. He asks:
Charles Boden said:
How can a child recall lives that could not possibly have been his own?
To which I, the reviewer, answer, "He can't." However, a child can be fed information and encouraged to tell tales in much the same fashion that Hans the Clever Horse was taught to "count". To believe that every fantastic tale that a child tells is evidence of a past life is to discount the possibilities and wonder of the human imagination. Mr. Boden inserts some references to poorly-crafted and poorly-reviewed pseudoscientific studies in order to bolster his war against the human imagination and prop up his own dearly held belief that he's reincarnated from royalty. Mr. Boden then goes on to tell some anecdotes about his early childhood and family history that I won't recount.

Mr. Boden doesn't get to historical content until Chapter 2, in which he begins to tell the tale of the birth of Bonnie Prince Charlie. The historical portion of the text isn't as poorly written as the personal and philosophical portions, and one wishes that Mr. Boden had either written a book about history or an autobiography without attempting to conflate the two. However, his prose does sometimes lead the reader into incorrect assumptions. For instance, this:
Charles Boden said:
Elizabeth was considered a "bastard" daughter of King Henry VIII, as she was born of the marriage of King Henry with his second wife, Anne Boleyn, after his divorce from his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, which had not been authorized by the Roman Catholic church and Pope...
It leads the reader to believe that this lack of authorization from the Church was the cause of Elizabeth's status as a bastard, does it not? However, nothing could be further from the truth. The real reason that Elizabeth was considered a bastard is because of the Second Act of Succession of 1536, which had nothing to do with what the Roman Catholic Church or the Pope thought about Henry the VIII's marriage to Anne Boleyn, but rather, was Henry's own idea to protect the succession for potential children from his third marriage to Jane Seymour. As a matter of fact, the First Act of Succession of 1534 declared his first child from his first marriage a bastard as well, and the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope did approve of that marriage, and strongly objected to the First Act of Succession.

See how easily bad prose can lead a reader to incorrect conclusions? Although I was unable to review much of the historical content of Descendant of Kings due to the fact that it was only an 8 page preview and at least three of those were wasted in unnecessary apologia and philosophizing, the bit about Elizabeth I's bastardy makes me fear for the worst in regards to the historical content throughout the entire tome. As a reviewer, I wasn't expecting much from Descendant of Kings, and, all in all, I can't say I'm disappointed.
The first review that I wrote was better than this one :mad:
 
I don't understand why the link to Big Les's excellent review of Charles's book was sent to AAH. Yes, it's critical of it, but I don't see it breaking the rules, and it's not off-topic.

Here is the link so hopefully it's not lost in AAH purgatory:

http://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/a-proper-charlie/

If this post needs to be moved to AAH, I would appreciate it if the mods would let us know the reasons.

Thanks. :)
 
If you can all give me a little time, I'll try to reply to your comments, beginning with this one:

How remarkably prescient! In case the prose is a bit too clumsy for you, he is saying that history, rather than backing his assertions, will be more likely to be used as evidence that his assertions are incorrect. If this is Mr. Boden's belief, one wonders why he didn't amend his assertions in order to better match with recorded history? And since he didn't amend his assertions, is it his claim that recorded history is wrong, and his assertions are correct? Perhaps he'd have been better served by categorizing his work as fiction rather than fact, if he believes that it contradicts known history.

A common claim against those who believe in reincarnaion is that "they were always someone famous". In fact this is not true. 99% of people who undergo hypnotic regression have "mental visions" of very normal lives. IF reincarnation is a reality, however, it is inevitable that some of us will have lived a "famous" past life.

I open the story I wrote not apologetically, but attemping to explain the purpose of what I wrote.

Finally, the book actually begins in the middle of page 3 with some autobiographical data about Mr. Boden and the lyrics of Charlie is my Darling, which was not popularized until after Bonnie Prince Charlie's death. The book goes on to share some of Mr. Boden's "visions" that he has interpreted to be past-life data.

What remains is the fact that whenever my father used to sing me this song, I used to have "mental visions" such as I have described them. The imagery of a minstrel was an added afterthought.

And Les, I have not given you permission to quote my book, so could the moderators please remove the link to AAH? BTW, I am very thankful to the moderators here who took the initiative that has been taken.

Concerning Alice's claim at having debunked my genealogy, what took me to conclude that the John Stewart and Mary Campbell mentioned in the John Stewart's baptism registry (b. 7 July 1645 at Kenmore) were John Stewart of Appin and the Lady of Lawers was this passage in this article: http://www.incallander.co.uk/oldlwrs.htm

The Lady of Lawers, whose sayings are often quoted in the Highlands of Perthshire, is said to have been a Stewart of Appin, Argyll, and to have been the wife of one of the lairds of Lawers. This tradition, however, conflicts with the known records of these families; and although diligent search has been made among old records and genealogies no reference so far has been found to such a person. On the other hand the traditions about the Lady of Lawers are so strong and definite that there can be no doubt as to the existence at some period in the past, of a woman who was gifted with a wonderful measure of wisdom and shrewdness, and who was closely related to the lairds of Lawers. Tradition asserts that a family of Stewarts, known on Lochtayside as Na Combaich, "The Companions," first came to Lawers from Appin in Argyll, as an escort with the Lady, and references to these Stewarts in the Kirk Session records of Kenmore of two hundred years ago confirm the tradition as to their district of origin being " Appin of Stewart." Some of the Lady's prophecies refer to the old church of Lawers, now a ruined building beside her house. A stone over the doorway of this church bears the date 1669, which would suggest that she lived about the middle of the seventeenth century. It is possible that she was the wife of a younger brother of Sir James Campbell, the sixth laird, and that she resided in the house rebuilt after 1645, by which time Sir James and his family had removed to Strathearn.

It was never my intention to fool anyone when I gave the reference to the wikipedia article, Alice. It was just the reference for the linkage with John Stewart of Appin. Had I wanted to hide my IPI, I would have done so...

This link is, I believe, a far better one than the IGI:

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Huntly1445.htm

There are known registries that Lord Duncan Stewart 4th of Appin was married to a Janet Gordon. Duncan was born abt 1515, so if we estimate that the most common age difference between husband and wife in those days was of five years, we can estimate that Janet Gordon was born between 1515 and 1520, which is incompatible wih her being a daughter of the 3rd Earl of Huntley, Alexander Gordon, who was born abt 1460, but most probably a daughter of Lord John Gordon, born abt 1485, who was, indeed, married to Lady Margaret Jane Stewart, daughter of King James IV and Lady Margaret Drummond.

The onomatics (the Scottish tradition of giving one's children their grandparents' names)
would account for her name, seeing as Lord John Gordon's mother's name was also Janet Gordon, so if he had any daughters, by tradition the 1st daughter would take on the maternal grandmoher's name and the 2nd the paternal grandmother's.

Even if this connection indeed is not correct, via the various marriages through the wives my genealogy is conducted to three sons and two daughters of King Robert II, a son and two daughters of King Robert III and two daughters of King James I. All legitimate, I might add. The Stewarts of Appin were also descended from Prince Robert Duke of Albany, younger son of King Robert II, and via King James I's marriage to Joan Beaufort I am also descended from the Plantagenet kings of England and consequently also from William the Conqueror and Emperor Charles Magne, so the prediction of my "descending from a lineage of princes and kings" still remains correct.

For those who may have seen the filme "Braveheart", I am descended from literally ALL the main characters in the film.

The book is what it is intended to be: not an intention to convince, but to share the experiences I went through and that took me to believe in what I do. In truth, it has been an attempt to share the possibility that our lives are not retricted to this one physical existence. Any harm in it being philosophical, Les? Because yes, that is the purpose for which it was intended...
 
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If you can all give me a little time, I'll try to reply to your comments, beginning with this one:



A common claim against those who believe in reincarnaion is that "they were always someone famous". In fact this is not true. 99% of people who undergo hypnotic regression have "mental visions" of very normal lives. IF reincarnation is a reality, however, it is inevitable that some of us will have lived a "famous" past life.

I open the story I wrote not apologetically, but attemping to explain the purpose of what I wrote.



What remains is the fact that whenever my father used to sing me this song, I used to have "mental visions" such as I have described them. The imagery of a minstrel was an added afterthought.

And Les, I have not given you permission to quote my book, so could the moderators please remove the link to AAH? BTW, I am very thankful to the moderators here who took the initiative that has been taken.

Concerning Alice's claim at having debunked my genealogy, what took me to conclude that the John Stewart and Mary Campbell mentioned in the John Stewart's baptism registry (b. 7 July 1645 at Kenmore) were John Stewart of Appin and the Lady of Lawers was this passage in this article: http://www.incallander.co.uk/oldlwrs.htm



It was never my intention to fool anyone when I gave the reference to the wikipedia article, Alice. It was just the reference for the linkage with John Stewart of Appin. Had I wanted to hide my IPI, I would have done so...

This link is, I believe, a far better one than the IGI:

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Huntly1445.htm

There are known registries that Lord Duncan Stewart 4th of Appin was married to a Janet Gordon. Duncan was born abt 1515, so if we estimate that the most common age difference between husband and wife in those days was of five years, we can estimate that Janet Gordon was born between 1515 and 1520, which is incompatible wih her being a daughter of the 3rd Earl of Huntley, Alexander Gordon, who was born abt 1460, but most probably a daughter of Lord John Gordon, born abt 1485, who was, indeed, married to Lady Margaret Jane Stewart, daughter of King James IV and Lady Margaret Drummond.

The onomatics (the Scottish tradition of giving one's children their grandparents' names)
would account for her name, seeing as Lord John Gordon's mother's name was also Janet Gordon, so if he had any daughters, by tradition the 1st daughter would take on the maternal grandmoher's name and the 2nd the paternal grandmother's.

Even if this connection indeed is not correct, via the various marriages through the wives my genealogy is conducted to three sons and two daughters of King Robert II, a son and two daughters of King Robert III and two daughters of King James I. All legitimate, I might add. The Stewarts of Appin were also descended from Prince Robert Duke of Albany, younger son of King Robert II, and via King James I's marriage to Joan Beaufort I am also descended from the Plantagenet kings of England and consequently also from William the Conqueror and Emperor Charles Magne, so the prediction of my "descending from a lineage of princes and kings" still remains correct.

For those who may have seen the filme "Braveheart", I am descended from literally ALL the main characters in the film.

The book is what it is intended to be: not an intention to convince, but to share the experiences I went through and that took me to believe in what I do. In truth, it has been an attempt to share the possibility that our lives are not retricted to this one physical existence. Any harm in it being philosophical, Les? Because yes, that is the purpose for which it was intended...

Braveheart was fiction.Read up about the real William Wallace.
 
Oh Charles. Will you ever learn? Well, at least this time you can't claim you're being persecuted. After all, the thread had all but died down, yet you couldn't resist bringing it back to life.
 
Welcome back, Charles. I hope you stay and discuss the comments. I will only address this comment:
Charles Boden said:
And Les, I have not given you permission to quote my book, so could the moderators please remove the link to AAH?.
Neither Big Les, nor Apology, nor anyone else requires your permission to quote from your book. When I began writing this post I intended to post links to the appropriate provisions of the copyright law but decided that I don't want to do your work for you.

If you feel Big Les has overstepped his bounds, broken the JREF MA, or broken copyright law, please be so kind as to demonstrate it by citing the appropriate law, regulation, agreement, proviso, or whatever.
 
Two quick additions to my comments:

1. "Onomatics" does not refer to the Scottish tradition of giving children their grandparents' names. It is the study of names in general and is spelled "onomastics."

2. I humorously referenced my own ancestry many posts ago, but I was not making it up. I, too, am a direct descendant of William the Conqueror and Charlemagne as well as other minor royalty on mainland Europe and in Britain. I am also mostly of Scottish descent; I may have to research my Scottish royal lineage since I am certain I can find it. I've also been long interested in things Scottish (and Irish), particularly the military side of it, and can honestly say that at times during my personal research I have felt myself to be "actually there" particularly during BPC's time and the tragedy at Culloden.

Still, I await Alice Shortcakes' comments on Charles' comments regarding his lineage.
 
What remains is the fact that whenever my father used to sing me this song, I used to have "mental visions" such as I have described them. The imagery of a minstrel was an added afterthought.

Wow. What a silly statement. A child having a vivid imagination when a song is sung to it. Just wow.

I mean, really, are you aware of what you just said? It also means that a parent reads a story from Winnie-Pooh the bear to a child, and that child let's it imagination play and imagines to be there, in that story, with him, that the child is a reincarnation of Winnie-Pooh?

Or Pipi Longstockings? Or any Walt Disney book?

Oh boy, arguments for woo can get really stupid if the person making them is really desperate.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Wow. What a silly statement. A child having a vivid imagination when a song is sung to it. Just wow.

I mean, really, are you aware of what you just said? It also means that a parent reads a story from Winnie-Pooh the bear to a child, and that child let's it imagination play and imagines to be there, in that story, with him, that the child is a reincarnation of Winnie-Pooh?

Or Pipi Longstockings? Or any Walt Disney book?

Oh boy, arguments for woo can get really stupid if the person making them is really desperate.

Greetings,

Chris
Plus, Charles' statement that the minstrel is "an added afterthought," yet it was not described as such. Here we have a knowingly fabricated memory which Charles presented as evidence.
 
Plus, Charles' statement that the minstrel is "an added afterthought," yet it was not described as such. Here we have a knowingly fabricated memory which Charles presented as evidence.

From Post 31586:
Charles Boden said:
It was never my intention to fool anyone when I gave the reference to the wikipedia article, Alice. It was just the reference for the linkage with John Stewart of Appin. Had I wanted to hide my IPI, I would have done so...

So he's like the medical researcher who innocently fails to disclose that he is on the drug manufacturer's payroll, except that he is also the manufacturer.
 
I thought it was a comedy.I know a couple who named their daughter Murron in honour of Wallace's wife,they loved the film.They were quite put out when I told them that her name was Marion and that Murron was a Hollywood invention.Basing any kind of historical research on the movie is sheer lunacy.

To be fair to Charles, I don't think there is any reason to believe he has done that.
 
Oh Charles. Will you ever learn? Well, at least this time you can't claim you're being persecuted. After all, the thread had all but died down, yet you couldn't resist bringing it back to life.

And give up show business?
 
I think I've started on the wrong foot for the resurrected portion of this thread. My stance regarding Charles' claims has not changed in the slightest, but given that portions of the thread were consigned to AAH and given that the thread went on (then off) moderated status, I think stepping back from even implied mockery is called for.

So, Charles, I'll reign in my tone and limit my comments to your comments and claims. Please continue with your response to the review of your book and Alice's comments regarding your genealogical research.
 
Charles, you're throwing the word "approximately" about with wild abandon when it comes to unknown birth and marriage dates. The average age difference between husbands and wives for this period may have been five years, but aristocratic and land-owning families were not average people. Such marriages were arranged by the couple's parents or guardians, and a male heir or potential heir could just as easily be married to a pre-pubescent girl or older spinster/widow if both families benefitted financially or socially.

I simply don't understand why you've interpreted this article http://www.incallander.co.uk/oldlwrs.htm as you have. Neither the Stewarts nor the Gordons are aware of a person answering the description of the Lady of Lawers being a member of their families. So what if members of the Stewarts of Appin DID relocate to the Lawers area? Tradition has it, and according to both families it is only a tradition, that the Lady was a Stewart and her husband a Gordon. In an earlier post you described your version of the story, based on nothing more than a coincidence involving common names, as being "more coherent". Yes, it's more coherent from your point of view but it makes nonsense of actual recorded history.

I notice that in your first Wikipedia edit you made John Stewart the second son of Duncan Stewart 6th of Appin. A few days later, presumably after discovering that this John Stewart died without issue, you switched the father's identity to Duncan Stewart 5th of Appin who did indeed have a son called John who married and had children. You haven't addressed the two problems you made for yourself by marrying John Stewart Mark II off to the daughter of Sir James Campbell who died in 1645:

1) Sir James Campbell was the father of one of the most famous men in Scotland - Sir John Campbell, who later became the 1st Earl of Loudon, was made Lord Chancellor of Scotland in 1641 and was for ten years the leading negotiator between King Charles I and the covenanters. Is there any evidence that Sir James had a daughter named Mary? And is it likely that the Earl of Loudon's SISTER could have been the soothsaying Lady of Lawers and been so completely forgotten that she was later thought to be a Stewart of Appin?

2) John Stewart Mark II was granted the lands of Ardsheal by his father and became Stewart 1st of Ardsheal. His wife was named Mary McDonald, not Mary Gordon.

Charles, can you honestly say that you would have volunteered the fact that you edited the Wikeipedia article had you not been found out?

I have absolutely no interest in your umpteen lines of royal descent and I'm certainly not spending any more of my own money investigating them. THOUSANDS of people alive today are descended from at least one royal line or another.

For God's sake let's give this a rest and concentrate on something a bit more concrete, such as Big Les' discoveries about the town of Biggar you claim to remember so well from your previous incarnation as Bonnie Prince Charlie.
 
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