Hello from a non-skeptic

[Jack by the hedge]

TV shows are generally interested in generating entertainment value rather than seeking to uncover the truth. They're quite happy to broadcast nutcases or frauds if they're entertaining.

When the JREF test someone for a paranormal ability, they take care to establish exactly what it is that the applicant claims they can do, and then collaborate with the applicant to design a test procedure for that claim which eliminates bias or cheating on either side. They also require a medical professional to agree that the person does not appear to be mentally ill.

 

[dlorde]

The problem is to do the proper blinding so that one TRULY don't know where the position are and not even GUESS it.

Of course, blinding won't prove anything if the spirits need to look through the eyes of the living.

A clearer definition of spirits and their properties and abilities is necessary in order to devise a good test protocol. I suspect it won't be forthcoming.

So what, exactly, is the hypothesis and the null hypothesis for the Ouija Board test?

How do we distinguish between spirits and ideomotor effect?

 

[Akhenaten]

<megasnip>

Also psychism is confused for instantaneous.

I feel that this phrase best summarises your post.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

From Sumdude:

I can't speak for everyone, but I can think of several things that would convince me of the supernatural.

I have trouble coming up with a meaning for supernatural that doesn't simply mean "unexplained".

Many things that were once supernatural have yielded to naturalistic explanations.

In my world view, if life after death were convincingly proven, I would have to think there would be some explanation for it - in nature, not outside of it.

Same with telepathy, psychokinesis, you name it.

I can accept really bizarre propositions, but a mechanism for such must at least be conceivable, even if not yet known.

 

[wareagle]

No this is co dependency. My trigger point, my button to be pushed, my pet peeve the everything that makes me world a sour place.


I'm not sure if Charles said he could predict lottery numbers but I KNOW I did. 3 digit daily lottery numbers. However predictive becomes blurred here.

parameters were made clear , I made it known that it is a mental ability clear. The first thing I get is "Oh that's not good enough you must psychically predict the Finnish and Belgium Lottery in order to prove this."



I cannot psychically provide lottery numbers, I can use a trained mental ability to provide a mostly constituent return. The more its practiced the better the consistency. Like any other mental ability.

I would tell anyone steps to learn that.

The fearful skeptic pushes it back and says YOU PROVE IT. The fearful spiritual community pushes it back and you says you do it for me.

That is co dependency. I cannot prove what you cannot yet see. When you can see it then you will have your proof.

I will not ever never EVER work harder than the skeptic or the believer. (trigger trigger trigger) I will not discredit you by enabling you. I will show you I will enable your dependency though.

IF it is proof you seek. Or money.

If it is not and you just want someone to support your world view then it is co dependency and if I begin to do that I become a hypocrite. What you want must be supported on your own. No one is denying you the means to do so.

Charles, you did mention earlier on that you could predict lottery numbers better than chance, and although you don't seem to count that as psychic or evidence of special powers, I'm sure many here would feel it is unusual, at least.

This does seem to be an interesting claim, and potentially testable, so would you be prepared to predict some lottery numbers for us? It doesn't matter which lottery, as long as we can see the actual winning numbers and compare them with your prediction. Obviously you would need to state which lottery and which future draw your predicted numbers referred to.

Others here could also attempt to predict the same draw, and we could subsequently check to see the variation in predictions, who did best, who worst, etc. Not very scientific as a single test, but it would be interesting and if you're willing, it could be the first of several trials that would allow for a decent statistical analysis.

How about it?

 

[wareagle]

They also require a medical professional to agree that the person does not appear to be mentally ill.

Yeah and that's good but I've found in psychic communities that people of rather sound mind put on an act even with others in the psychic community. Someone can be of sound mind and assume a persona. I mean don't get me wrong, that is not the testers fault, that is no one's responsibility but the actual psychic being tested. My question I would pose to a skeptic when watching these events, setting the testing and psychism aside, how do you perceive those people on a personal level?

 

[AdMan]

I cannot psychically provide lottery numbers, I can use a trained mental ability to provide a mostly constituent return.

What does this mean? Do you mean consistent return?

wareagle, I suggest you first type your posts into a word processor and then run a spelling and grammar check. Otherwise your posts are mostly incoherent noise and add little to this thread.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So what, exactly, is the hypothesis and the null hypothesis for the Ouija Board test?

How do we distinguish between spirits and ideomotor effect?

Blindfolds?

 

[Apology]

@ Wareagle:

When you claim that you have a power that nobody else in the world, to date, has been able to prove that they have, what is so fearful about asking you to prove that your claim is true? I'm not afraid that you're psychic, or that psychic powers exist, I'm just completely doubtful that they do. It's not fearfulness, it's just good sense.

After all, the Reverend Jim Jones also said, "No, I can't prove what I'm saying, you have to have faith, you have to believe," and look how that turned out for all the poor people who had faith in him and believed in him. So did Marshall Applewhite. So did David Koresh. So does the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. So does Uri Geller. And yet not one of them have the powers that they claimed to have.

Asking you to prove your claim isn't at all out of line or "fearful". It's an appropriate response by any rational being.

 

[Pixel42]

Blindfolds?

dlorde has raised the possibility that the spirits need to "look through the eyes of the living" to select the right letters, which is an interesting point.

Asking questions to which no-one touching the glass can possibly know the answer (e.g. the result of a dice roll in another room which is being looked at by someone else) would seem to be the obvious solution.

 

[Akhenaten]

Free sig lines!

No this is co dependency. My trigger point, my button to be pushed, my pet peeve the everything that makes me world a sour place.

I cannot psychically provide lottery numbers, I can use a trained mental ability to provide a mostly constituent return.

I cannot prove what you cannot yet see. When you can see it then you will have your proof.

I will not discredit you by enabling you. I will show you I will enable your dependency though.

Jeepers, dude. It's scary that you think those phrases make sense.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I cannot psychically provide lottery numbers, I can use a trained mental ability to provide a mostly constituent return. The more its practiced the better the consistency. Like any other mental ability.

I gather you're saying you can't pick the numbers with certainty but you can generally do better than pure chance.

That's a claim which can be quantifiably tested (and a talent which can win the JREF's million dollar prize if true).

 

[Jack by the hedge]

dlorde has raised the possibility that the spirits need to "look through the eyes of the living" to select the right letters, which is an interesting point.

Asking questions to which no-one touching the glass can possibly know the answer (e.g. the result of a dice roll in another room which is being looked at by someone else) would seem to be the obvious solution.

Yep - that would seem to be a good control.

Or if that's not the sort of question the spirits bother to answer, how about a ouija board printed with abstract symbols and a handy translation chart visible to the spirits but not to the participants?

 

[wareagle]

Where did I ask you to have faith? I would expect that you take coherent tools, and mental excercizes and do it yourself so you can make your own mind up about the result with no external influences. No faith is required. There is some mental and time investment though.

One, please show me the post where I said the ability predict lottery numbers is a special power. You are asking me to provide evidence of something I didn't even say.

And there is a big difference between asking people to use their mental abilities to provide what they are looking for and asking them to drink tainted kool aid.

@ Wareagle:

When you claim that you have a power that nobody else in the world, to date, has been able to prove that they have, what is so fearful about asking you to prove that your claim is true? I'm not afraid that you're psychic, or that psychic powers exist, I'm just completely doubtful that they do. It's not fearfulness, it's just good sense.

After all, the Reverend Jim Jones also said, "No, I can't prove what I'm saying, you have to have faith, you have to believe," and look how that turned out for all the poor people who had faith in him and believed in him. So did Marshall Applewhite. So did David Koresh. So does the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. So does Uri Geller. And yet not one of them have the powers that they claimed to have.

Asking you to prove your claim isn't at all out of line or "fearful". It's an appropriate response by any rational being.

 

[Audible Click]

What does this mean? Do you mean consistent return?

wareagle, I suggest you first type your posts into a word processor and then run a spelling and grammar check. Otherwise your posts are mostly incoherent noise and add little to this thread.

I ran wareagle's lottery post through a spell and grammar checker and this was the result:

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

 

[Dunstan]

I don't doubt that you (and your friends, if they weren't consciously tricking you) were truly convinced that you had a genuine spiritualist experience. However, I'm not sure how after such a memorable experience at age 15, you became skeptical of any paranormal phenomena for over a decade

Yes, I'm interested in how he went from having this experience -- as well as his childhood memories of being reincarnated Scottish royalty -- to allegedly being a skeptic.

 

[dlorde]

I'm not sure if Charles said he could predict lottery numbers but I KNOW I did. 3 digit daily lottery numbers. However predictive becomes blurred here.

Oops! Sorry about that - my apologies to you and Charles.

Can you explain what you mean by 'predictive becomes blurred here'? You say you can predict lottery numbers - what's blurry about the prediction?

I cannot psychically provide lottery numbers, I can use a trained mental ability to provide a mostly constituent return.

It doesn't really matter how you do it, just that you do better than chance over a reasonable number of trials.

What do you mean by 'a mostly constituent return'?

The more its practiced the better the consistency. Like any other mental ability.

OK, good - so assuming you practice regularly and the members here don't, you should be able to significantly outperform them over a few trials, yes?

The fearful skeptic pushes it back and says YOU PROVE IT. The fearful spiritual community pushes it back and you says you do it for me.

Hopefully most sceptics here are more sceptical than fearful.

 

[Pixel42]

One, please show me the post where I said the ability predict lottery numbers is a special power.

The ability to predict lottery numbers is a special power. Whether or not you have specifically stated this - whether you are even aware of it - is irrelevant. It's the ability to predict future random events, which according to everything we know about how the universe works is impossible, and is therefore a paranormal ability. It certainly qualifies for the JREF $1m paranormal challenge.

ETA: Note that, as with any other such paranormal ability, to win the $1m you do not need to predict 100% correctly, just significantly and consistently better than chance.

 

[majamin]

I cannot psychically provide lottery numbers, I can use a trained mental ability to provide a mostly constituent return. The more its practiced the better the consistency. Like any other mental ability.

I would tell anyone steps to learn that.

I'm curious as to what these steps are ... please share.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Where did I ask you to have faith? I would expect that you take coherent tools, and mental excercizes and do it yourself so you can make your own mind up about the result with no external influences. No faith is required. There is some mental and time investment though.

How about a simple test to see if your talents actually exist? Is that also a requirement?