Hell: Eternal Punishment... right?

[gnome]

I loved this part of deleted scene in "Dogma":

AZRAEL:

Evil is an abstract; it's a human construct. But true to his irresponsible nature, man won't own up to being the engineer of evil, so he blames his dark deeds on my ilk. But his selfishness is limitless, and it's not enough for him to shadow his own existence. He turned Hell into a suffering pit - fire, wailing, darkness - the kind of place anyone would do anything to get out of. And why? Because he lacks the ability to forgive himself. It is beyond your abilities to simply make recompense for and regret the sins you commit. No - you choose rather to create a psychodrama and dwell in a foundless belief that God could never forgive your 'grievous offenses'. So you bring your guilt and inner-decay with you to Hell - where the horrid imaginations of so many gluttons-for-punishment give birth to the sickness that has infected the abyss since the first one of your kind arrived there, begging to be 'punished'.

And in doing so, they've transformed the cold and solitude to pain and misery. I've spent eons privy to the flames, inhaling the decay, hearing the wail of the damned... I'd rather not exist than go back to that. And if everyone has to go down with me, so be it.

 

[Robin]

I am unsure whether NDE's are valid or false. Science partially proves the majority of NDE's false, but how is it that a man/woman (can't recall which) was born blind, but yet when he/she experienced the phenomena, he/she were able to see? Blind people can't see.

Wait.
I found a link to the blind story .
Linky: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

IF NDE's are valid, then it proves that there is an afterlife, or that your mind/soul/spirit/whatever it is goes on living, but only if they are true.

Congenitally blind people can "see" in dreams, they can draw the things they see in dreams, although it is not literally "sight".

Here is part of the description of the NDE:

As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems.

and here is a piece on the visual content of the dreams of congenitally blind people:

Instead, researchers studying waking imagery in blind and sighted individuals have generally concluded that congenitally blind individuals' imagery has characteristics that are functionally equivalent in many ways to the characteristics of visual imagery reported by sighted individuals. The images of totally congenitally blind individuals, however, lack the uniquely visual characteristics such as color and brightness and result in slight differences from the performance of sighted individuals on several imagery tasks.

Even if this story is true it is perfectly consistent with her simply having a dream.

 

[Robin]

I'm curious... aren't you a Christian?

Nope

Either way, why "of course"?

I is just a logical inconsistency - infinite mercy, perfect justice - torture chambers.

Don't it just?

Matthew 13:50
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Luke 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And of course Matthew 25:46. If Hell is not eternal, then neither is Heaven - the same word is used for each.

 

[TinfoilCat]

Congenitally blind people can "see" in dreams, they can draw the things they see in dreams, although it is not literally "sight".

Here is part of the description of the NDE:

and here is a piece on the visual content of the dreams of congenitally blind people:

Even if this story is true it is perfectly consistent with her simply having a dream.

I may be wrong, but don't humans who are born blind only experience auditory dreams and not visual dreams?

 

[Robin]

I may be wrong, but don't humans who are born blind only experience auditory dreams and not visual dreams?

Did you read the paper I cited? Did you read the part I quoted?

 

[TinfoilCat]

Did you read the paper I cited? Did you read the part I quoted?

Yes.
Although I agree that it may be dream orientated,but the blind woman could see her own body. I'm not sure what she meant by this whether she saw what a imaginative body created by her mind or if she actually saw what we see as a body.

 

[Robin]

Yes.
Although I agree that it may be dream orientated,but the blind woman could see her own body. I'm not sure what she meant by this whether she saw what a imaginative body created by her mind or if she actually saw what we see as a body.

Everything you see is an imaginative body created by your mind.

The description of the NDE says she could not discern colour. The paper says that the congenitally blind have something like images in their dreams but cannot discern colour.

By the way, how is it that people who no longer have eyes are supposed to see things anyway?

 

[six7s]

this STILL does not explain how a blind woman is able to see.

A fascinating question


Paintings By An Artist Who Has Been Blind Since Birth

http://www.cynical-c.com/archives/bloggraphics/esref1ba.jpg

Esref Armagan was born both unsighted and to an impoverished family. As a child and young adult he never received any formal schooling or training; however, he has taught himself to write and print. He draws and paints by using his hands and primarily oil paints. In this manner, Mr. Armagan has been perfecting his art for the past thirty-five years.
Here is an article from NewScientist.com which goes into more detail.

Senses special: The art of seeing without sight

The painter is Esref Armagan. And he is here in Boston to see if a peek inside his brain can explain how a man who has never seen can paint pictures that the sighted easily recognise - and even admire. He paints houses and mountains and lakes and faces and butterflies, but he's never seen any of these things. He depicts colour, shadow and perspective, but it is not clear how he could have witnessed these things either. How does he do it?

Because if Armagan can represent images in the same way a sighted person can, it raises big questions not only about how our brains construct mental images, but also about the role those images play in seeing. Do we build up mental images using just our eyes or do other senses contribute too? How much can congenitally blind people really understand about space and the layout of objects within it? How much "seeing" does a blind person actually do?

Although there is a lot we don't understand, looking to the world of woo for insights is a logical fallacy that introduces an unnecessary plurality