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Heiwa's Pizza Box Experiment

Heiwa...still waiting on your answers to the questions i posed in post #563

Quoted here, all questions have to do with your ship/iceberg analogy:

- How long does it take the propeller (applying a force of 1N) to accelerate the ship to cruising speed (x)?

- How long does it take an iceberg (applying a force of -1N) to decelerate the ship to 0?

- If the ship was moving forward at cruising speed, how long would it take for the propeller to bring the ship to a complete stop by applying it's full thrust (1N) in reverse?

- How much water resistance is there (in N) when the ship has decelerated to 1/2 of its cruising speed? 1/4 of its cruising speed? How will this affect the rate of deceleration?

- If there was no water resistance, how quickly would the iceberg in your example stop the ship?

heiwa said:
So answers to questions 2 and 3 are No, No.

So an object will always apply the same amount of force regardless of how fast it is moving?
 
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As this contact + what happens later is a dynamic event, whatever it falls onto also applies a damping force F2 (a new force function of many parameters independent of, e.g. m) on the falling object and the falling object evidently applies an equal force -F2 on the whatever it falls on.

This dampening force of yours (a new one to me) is independent of the mass? In other words, it takes the same force to stop a feather as it does to stop a brick? If it is independent of the mass, please tell me what it *is* dependent on. How do you calculate it? Thanks.
 
I do not like Yes/No answers so explanations are necessary.


Explanations added are fine, as long as you also give the yes/no answer. Which you have done, so thank you.


Yes - a falling object always apply a force F1 equal to its weight (mg) on whatever it falls onto and whatever it falls on applies a force -FI on the falling object. No more, no less. F1 is constant. Answer is Yes to question 1.


Ah, but "F1" is not the total force that a falling object applies to whatever it falls on, which is what I was asking about. F1 is the component of that total force that is the object's weight.

As this contact + what happens later is a dynamic event, whatever it falls onto also applies a damping force F2 (a new force function of many parameters independent of, e.g. m) on the falling object and the falling object evidently applies an equal force -F2 on the whatever it falls on. F2 is variable in time.


That part is correct...

F2 normally arrests, e.g. any destruction caused by the contact.


... and that part is wrong, for any reasonable definition of "normally." When a large tree falls on a car, for instance, nothing arrests the destruction of the car. The car is destroyed.

So it is not the falling object that applies F2 on whatever it falls on, but the contrary. The falling object can only apply F1 on whatever it falls on.


That contradicts what you just said in the previous paragraph.

"The falling object evidently applies an equal force -F2 on the whatever it falls on."

"The falling object can only apply F1 on whatever it falls on."

The first is basically correct, the second is not. You have in fact just shown that the falling object applies F1 + F2 on the object it falls on. Simple.

(Please don't try to confuse the issue with the minus sign you put on F2. That sign in that context means only that the force is in the opposite direction as the F2 applied to the falling object by the object it's falling on. Force -F2 applied dynamically by the falling object to the object it falls on is in the same direction as F1, the weight of the object, so the magnitude of the total force on the object fallen on is correctly F1 + F2.)

So answers to questions 2 and 3 are No, No.


No, those answers are wrong.

The answer to question 3 is clearly yes, because as you have just shown, the falling object applies F1 + F2. Since F1 is the weight, F1 + F2 is more than the weight.

The answer to question 3 is also yes, for instance in certain cases where the object being fallen on is itself already moving.

In summary, it appears that through the discussion in these threads (this pizza box experiment thread and the scale experiment thread) you are becoming aware of the nature of dynamic forces whose existence you have previously denied or at least ignored.

So, recognizing that dynamic forces occur in collisions (including collisions resulting from falls), and that the dynamic forces are distinct from the weight of the falling object and can be significantly larger in magnitude, let's return to the pizza box experiment.

The pizza box experiment (if you ever actually performed it and if it had the outcome you predict) demonstrates that a structure, dropped onto another structure that is capable of supporting three times the dropped structure's static weight, from a distance of about 3.7 centimeters, does not destroy the lower structure.

The World Trade center tower collapses demonstrate that a structure, dropped onto another structure that is capable of supporting three times the dropped structure's static weight, from a distance of 370 centimeters, does destroy the lower structure.

Where is there any contradiction between these results? Wouldn't you expect a fall from a hundred times greater distance to have a greater effect?

What happens in your pizza box thought experiment if you space your pizza boxes 370 centimeters apart, and drop the falling ones from a relative height of 370 centimeters?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
This dampening force of yours (a new one to me) is independent of the mass? In other words, it takes the same force to stop a feather as it does to stop a brick? If it is independent of the mass, please tell me what it *is* dependent on. How do you calculate it? Thanks.

Just an FYI:
Damping is Velocity dependent:
If you write the equation of motion:
F=M*X''+B*X'+K*X, "B" is the damping.

Eta: It is also a function of 1/(Wf-WN), as in 1/(Wf^2-Wn^2-2*z*Wn*j) where Wf is Forcing Frequency, Wn is natural Frequency of the system, z is damping (% of critical), and j=SQRT(-1)
 
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F1 (mg) is a constant force that upper block with mass m applies on anything it is in contact with; before, during and after 'impact'. Before 'impact' and destruction started F1 caused the columns of the structure to be compressed to <0.3 yield stress, i.e. FoS >3. The lower structure could easily carry a 3 times heavier upper block!

It does not matter if upper block is static (fixed to lower structure) or moving downwards(contacting lower structure after 'free fall'). F1 is always constant because m and g are constant.

At contact with lower structure, lower structure applies force -F1 on upper block according Newton's third law.

However, as upper block is moving, lower structure also applies force F2 on upper block just after 'impact'. This force F2 is variable and a function of many parameters; time, local failures developing with time, energy consumed due to deformations and structural failures in both bodies developing with time. This force F2 should decelerate the upper block!

If lower structure was not there, F2 would be zero.

Evidently the upper block, again according Newton's third law, applies a force -F2 on the lower structure, when this (impact + destruction) happens.

Thus, just after 'impact' upper block applies total force F3 = F1 - F2 on structure below and structure below applies force -F3 = -F1 + F2 on upper block.

At every moment between 'impact' and collapse arrest there is equilibrium; F3 - F3 = 0.

As F3 > F1 the upper block must decelerate after 'impact'.

The serious error made Bazant is that he suggests in usual NWO manner that it is the upper block that applies F2 on the lower structure causing a shock wave! But, sorry, it is the other way around and no shock wave. Just plenty of local failures and friction between loose parts caused by F2.

Bazant suggests that F1 is also variable, i.e. that more mass is glued to it after impact and m increases and therefore F1 increases, but that is further NWO nonsense. Mass m of upper block is just a columns and floors bolted together. Nothing can be glued to that.

F3 is evidently variable with time because F2 is variable (and F1 is constant).

When collapse arrest is achieved F2 is zero. This happens when all energy applied by F1 at contact (max 1.2 GJ, i.e. not very much, e.g. energy content of 41 litres of diesel oil) is consumed due to local failures caused by F2 in upper block and lower structure and friction between partly loose parts on the damaged zone also caused by F2. The failures are generally caused by columns slicing floors apart, the friction develops between loose floors and columns.

This normally happens very quickly. One result should be very quick decelaration of upper block. It was not moving very fast at 'impact' and should be stopped after a certain amount of local structural failures + friction. As this is not recorded on any video of WTC1 destruction - actually the upper block disappears before impact and WTC1 lower structure simply explodes from top to bottom - the global collapse of WTC1 could not have been caused by the upper block dropping. Other forces FX and energies are therefore involved.
 
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So an object will always apply the same amount of force regardless of how fast it is moving?

Force F is only a function of acceleration a and mass m, F = ma, thus not a function of velocity v or how fast it is moving. So answer to your question is that velocity does not influence the force.

And when a moving object applies a force F on anything, anything always apply -F on the moving object to start with. After that other things will happen as I have explained above.
 
This dampening force of yours (a new one to me) is independent of the mass? In other words, it takes the same force to stop a feather as it does to stop a brick? If it is independent of the mass, please tell me what it *is* dependent on. How do you calculate it? Thanks.

The dampening force F2 (see post above) of the lower structure is only a function of time and deformations, local failures and friction, etc (energy absorbtion), developing after force F1 of the upper block is applied to it. F1 (constant) is evidently a function of the mass m of the upper block be it feathers or bricks or a fat American jumping on a bathroom scale from 3.7 m.
The energy applied by this mass is easy to calculate.
 
F1 (mg) is a constant force that upper block with mass m applies on anything it is in contact with; before, during and after 'impact'. Before 'impact' and destruction started F1 caused the columns of the structure to be compressed to <0.3 yield stress, i.e. FoS >3. The lower structure could easily carry a 3 times heavier upper block!

It does not matter if upper block is static (fixed to lower structure) or moving downwards(contacting lower structure after 'free fall'). F1 is always constant because m and g are constant.

At contact with lower structure, lower structure applies force -F1 on upper block according Newton's third law.

However, as upper block is moving, lower structure also applies force F2 on upper block just after 'impact'. This force F2 is variable and a function of many parameters; time, local failures developing with time, energy consumed due to deformations and structural failures in both bodies developing with time. This force F2 should decelerate the upper block!

If lower structure was not there, F2 would be zero.

Evidently the upper block, again according Newton's third law, applies a force -F2 on the lower structure, when this (impact + destruction) happens.

Thus, just after 'impact' upper block applies total force F3 = F1 - F2 on structure below and structure below applies force -F3 = -F1 + F2 on upper block.

At every moment between 'impact' and collapse arrest there is equilibrium; F3 - F3 = 0.

As F3 > F1 the upper block must decelerate after 'impact'.

The serious error made Bazant is that he suggests in usual NWO manner that it is the upper block that applies F2 on the lower structure causing a shock wave! But, sorry, it is the other way around and no shock wave. Just plenty of local failures and friction between loose parts caused by F2.

Bazant suggests that F1 is also variable, i.e. that more mass is glued to it after impact and m increases and therefore F1 increases, but that is further NWO nonsense. Mass m of upper block is just a columns and floors bolted together. Nothing can be glued to that.

F3 is evidently variable with time because F2 is variable (and F1 is constant).

When collapse arrest is achieved F2 is zero. This happens when all energy applied by F1 at contact (max 1.2 GJ, i.e. not very much, e.g. energy content of 41 litres of diesel oil) is consumed due to local failures caused by F2 in upper block and lower structure and friction between partly loose parts on the damaged zone also caused by F2. The failures are generally caused by columns slicing floors apart, the friction develops between loose floors and columns.

This normally happens very quickly. One result should be very quick decelaration of upper block. It was not moving very fast at 'impact' and should be stopped after a certain amount of local structural failures + friction. As this is not recorded on any video of WTC1 destruction - actually the upper block disappears before impact and WTC1 lower structure simply explodes from top to bottom - the global collapse of WTC1 could not have been caused by the upper block dropping. Other forces FX and energies are therefore involved.
You just proved you have problems with basic physics. Take this to your nearest physics professor who does not partake of the massive doses of "vaporized joints" as you do. What is a vaporized joint you use in your paper online? How were the joints vaporized?
Do you realize your ideas are not based on physics? How do you ignore F=ma!?

Your post dooms your ideas. You have proven one thing, you and physics are strangers.

It does not matter if upper block is static (fixed to lower structure) or moving downwards(contacting lower structure after 'free fall'). F1 is always constant because m and g are constant.
WHAT? PHYSICS? ACCELERATION?
 
Nicepants asked (OT of course)

AA - How long does it take the propeller (applying a force of 1N) to accelerate the ship to cruising speed (x)?

BB - How long does it take an iceberg (applying a force of -1N) to decelerate the ship to 0?

CC - If the ship was moving forward at cruising speed, how long would it take for the propeller to bring the ship to a complete stop by applying it's full thrust (1N) in reverse?

DD - How much water resistance is there (in N) when the ship has decelerated to 1/2 of its cruising speed? 1/4 of its cruising speed? How will this affect the rate of deceleration?

EE- If there was no water resistance, how quickly would the iceberg in your example stop the ship?

AA - It depends on the wet surface area, roughness of the wet surface and shape of the the wet area (to produce waves and eddies) of the ship. Generally the resistance (force F2 in posts above) increases exponentially with speed, so if you suddenly apply a constant force F1 to a ship, acceleration is big at start and zero when it achives speed (x); so the time is, say T (see CC below).

BB - It depends on the force F2 that the iceberg applies to the ship after contact. See previous posts.

CC - See AA. If you suddenly apply a force -F1 to a ship crusing at speed (x) it takes time T to stop it (with F2 assisting)

DD - the resistance, force F2, is, i.a. a function of speed, see AA.. The relationship is generally exponential - resistance increases quicker than increasing speed. In reverse it is reverse.

EE - when a ship hits an iceberg, water resistance of any kind plays little role. The F2 is then applied by the iceberg and not the water.

According Bazant F2 does not exist or is actually applied by the ship on the water (or iceberg) at contact and not the water/iceberg on the ship, so you do not need a propeller in the NWO world to provide propulsion to a ship. Just give the ship a kick ... and it will cruise endlessly (actually accelerating all the time with more and more water glued to it) slicing through icebergs (causing sow flakes) and anything.

Fantastic world - NWO!
 
AA - It depends on the wet surface area, roughness of the wet surface and shape of the the wet area (to produce waves and eddies) of the ship. Generally the resistance (force F2 in posts above) increases exponentially with speed, so if you suddenly apply a constant force F1 to a ship, acceleration is big at start and zero when it achives speed (x); so the time is, say T (see CC below).

For the sake of simplicity we will call this value T.

nicepants said:
BB - How long does it take an iceberg (applying a force of -1N) to decelerate the ship to 0?
It depends on the force F2 that the iceberg applies to the ship after contact. See previous posts.

See bolded part of my question. According to your example the force is a constant -1N.

Heiwa said:
nicepants said:
If the ship was moving forward at cruising speed, how long would it take for the propeller to bring the ship to a complete stop by applying it's full thrust (1N) in reverse?
CC - See AA. If you suddenly apply a force -F1 to a ship crusing at speed (x) it takes time T to stop it

Time T is correct.

heiwa said:
nicepants said:
DD - How much water resistance is there (in N) when the ship has decelerated to 1/2 of its cruising speed? 1/4 of its cruising speed? How will this affect the rate of deceleration?
DD - the resistance, force F2, is, i.a. a function of speed, see AA.. The relationship is generally exponential - resistance increases quicker than increasing speed. In reverse it is reverse.

You are correct about the relationship being exponential, but you have neglected to answer the bolded portion of my question.

heiwa said:
nicepants said:
If there was no water resistance, how quickly would the iceberg in your example stop the ship?
when a ship hits an iceberg, water resistance of any kind plays little role. The F2 is then applied by the iceberg and not the water.

Your answer contradicts your example, in which the iceberg provided the same amount of resistance as the water did at cruising speed. (-1N) In your example it was the SUM of the iceberg and the water resistance which caused the ship to stop, not just 1 or the other.
 
Force F is only a function of acceleration a and mass m, F = ma, thus not a function of velocity v or how fast it is moving. So answer to your question is that velocity does not influence the force.

Acceleration is a function of mass and __________?

All other factors considered equal, the velocity of an object prior to decelerating to a stop will affect the amount of force required to bring said object to a stop. Do you agree?
 
F1 (mg) is a constant force that upper block with mass m applies on anything it is in contact with; before, during and after 'impact'.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

It does not matter if upper block is static (fixed to lower structure) or moving downwards(contacting lower structure after 'free fall'). F1 is always constant because m and g are constant.

No, no, no, mg is one and only one thing. It's the force of gravity on mass 'm'. It is not the force that 'm' is exerting on anything below except in a completely static situation.

Go stand on a scale in an elevator, watch as it starts to move. The force you are exerting on the scale is not mg except when there is no acceleration. Is it your claim that either m or g change in an elevator?
 
Did Heiwa really just say that velocity doesn't influence the force? Wahhh??? Either he's really pulling our legs or he's one of the dumbest people on the planet...

I once again point to my challenge of him standing in front of a FMJ bullet. Or how about a sabot round from an M1A2? If velocity doesn't influence the force, he'll be able to stop that round no problem!

Report back when you do!
 
Acceleration is a function of mass and __________?

All other factors considered equal, the velocity of an object prior to decelerating to a stop will affect the amount of force required to bring said object to a stop. Do you agree?

a = F/m !

No, original velocity of object doesn't matter! Any force applied/removed to the object properly will bring said object to a stop. Force only produces acceleration/deceleration or change of velocity.

Clearly demonstrated in the PBT experiment.
 
Did Heiwa really just say that velocity doesn't influence the force? Wahhh??? Either he's really pulling our legs or he's one of the dumbest people on the planet...

I once again point to my challenge of him standing in front of a FMJ bullet. Or how about a sabot round from an M1A2? If velocity doesn't influence the force, he'll be able to stop that round no problem!

Report back when you do!

If I get it right from Heiwa, he thinks that the force the bullet applys to you is the same as the force your body will do to the bullt e.g the bullet will come to stop?
 
Wrong, wrong, wrong.



No, no, no, mg is one and only one thing. It's the force of gravity on mass 'm'. It is not the force that 'm' is exerting on anything below except in a completely static situation.

Go stand on a scale in an elevator, watch as it starts to move. The force you are exerting on the scale is not mg except when there is no acceleration. Is it your claim that either m or g change in an elevator?

??? No - 1 kg remains 1 kg in the elevator and g is always abt. 9.82 m/s² in an elevator at sea level. Your mass do not change in a elevator and g remains the same. But the acceleration a on your mass may change by the accelerating elevator. The elevator floor is moving.

But why take the elevator? Just jump out of your window and drop down! Your mass remains the same and g is the same all the time when you drop.
 
??? No - 1 kg remains 1 kg in the elevator and g is always abt. 9.82 m/s² in an elevator at sea level. Your mass do not change in a elevator and g remains the same. But the acceleration a on your mass may change by the accelerating elevator. The elevator floor is moving.

But why take the elevator? Just jump out of your window and drop down! Your mass remains the same and g is the same all the time when you drop.

And as I've mentioned in the other thread... I've finally figured out your problem... you ignore the dynamic load that results from the impact of one object in motion into another that relative to the moving object is static. Unless you begin to understand that subject trying to lecture you on anything will be pointless.
 
And as I've mentioned in the other thread... I've finally figured out your problem... you ignore the dynamic load that results from the impact of one object in motion into another that relative to the moving object is static. Unless you begin to understand that subject trying to lecture you on anything will be pointless.

Which is amazing that he claims he's an engineer because calculating the dynamic load is the simplest thing in the world.
 
Your answer contradicts your example, in which the iceberg provided the same amount of resistance as the water did at cruising speed. (-1N) In your example it was the SUM of the iceberg and the water resistance which caused the ship to stop, not just 1 or the other.

Not really but OK - when the ship being pushed fwd by F = 1 N by its propeller at speed (x) it is balanced by force F = - 1 N by wave and frictional resistance applied on the ship in the opposite direction. And for every meter cruise you need 1 Nm energy to provide the propeller force to keep you going.

And then suddenly vessel hits an iceberg = added resistance, but propeller still pushes with F = 1 N.

When speed (x) = 0 after hitting iceberg, then iceberg applies F = - 1 N on ship as water resistance at speed (x) = 0 is 0. If speed (x) >0 after collision, you still need some F to overcome water resistance.

Happy?

However, according Bazant, when ship collides with iceberg, the ship suddenly becomes rigid and it is the rigid ship that applies this extra 1 N force on iceberg (and not as per Newton; iceberg on ship), and the ship slices through the iceberg that in turn becomes snow flakes. The ship actually accelerates to a higher speed, when colliding with iceberg, as F suddenly becomes 2 N.

This is a simple example of NWO physics. If you keep it simple, KIS, as I do in my examples, you easily see how ridiculous Bazant is!
 
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nicepants said:
All other factors considered equal, the velocity of an object prior to decelerating to a stop will affect the amount of force required to bring said object to a stop. Do you agree?

No, original velocity of object doesn't matter!
:jaw-dropp

So with an equal stopping distance...if an object is moving .00001mph it would require the same stopping force as an object moving 600 mph?

Apply your theory in reverse with a stationary object, and applying a force for 10 seconds. All other factors being equal, does an increase in force result in an increased end velocity?
 

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