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Heiwa's Pizza Box Experiment

Again, DGM, what Heiwa needs to show is that the frictional force from the iceberg (and thus the WTC in his analogy) is greater than the force from the propellers.

He has yet to do so and avoids it at every turn.

And he is doing exactly what he accuses Bazant of doing. Since he's equating the iceberg to the lower portion of the WTC, he's essentially saying that it's a solid mass. Because last time I checked, an iceberg was not made up of structural frames and has large open spaces inside. His iceberg analogy was fundamentally flawed from the beginning (just like his experiment). Surprised? I'm not.

He uses analogies that make sense on the surface (to childen as you noted), but when the more educated and rational among us dig into it, we find all these faults.
I agree, His analogies under anything other than casual scrutiny are badly flawed (this is why he claims to present them to children).

I do however (for my own personal knowledge) appreciate the efforts of the real knowable people in this thread. I almost feel (emphasis on almost) like I should send a check for the education.
 
But the upwards forces are equal to mg ... after a while = arrest. Sorry you do not understand. But it is shown in the Pizza Box Tower experiment.

You state here that upwards forces are equal to downwards forces. This means there is no change in velocity. So how can it slow down and stop? Newton's 1st Law disagrees with you.


Wrong, when you remove the floors you also remove the loads transmitted to the columns and the stresses in the columns will become very small ... and they will stand up like flag poles.

You don't know a whole lot about building construction, then. Admittedly, neither do I, but I do know that 110-story steel flagpoles do not remain standing under their own weight.

Sorry, questioning the government at war is treason in the US and US is at war. Homeland security will ensure that you are silenced. But I agree, it should be the topic of another thread.

Wrong again. In fact, treason is the only crime specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution. It is defined as such:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

(Article 3, section 3)

In fact, if questioning the government in times of war is an act of treason, then about 2/3 of the country is currently guilty of it. You are not only deficient in your knowledge of high school physics, but also of civics. And yet you have no problem speaking out about both.


And please - if you apply a force on anything, you should know that anything cannot resist it with a bigger force. Basic statics!

And once again, you are trying to apply static physics to a dynamic problem.


But apparently difficult to understand. That's why I presented the Pizza Box Tower experiment. Every child understands it ... but JREF members, no.

Laughable. My 9th grade students understand more than you do. Let me ask you this...how many architects, structural engineers, or materials scientist have you presented your pizza box theory to? What are their names, and what have their responses been to you comparing a stack of cardboard to a skyscraper?
 
So you wonder what the force is between impact and arrest? So you have still not understood? It cannot be bigger than the force applied at impact and it remains the same all the time until arrest. 1 N in the layman's example with a ship colliding with an ice berg. mg in the case of WTC1.


"mg in the case of WTC1"


After all the posts I've made showing this is not, indeed can not be the case.

And still Heiwa insist that we are the ones who don't understand.

Doublethink, mixed with a large helping of cognitive dissonance. Kind of pathetic, really.

I rest my case, and I'm putting Heiwa on ignore. I'm not wasting any more time.
 
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Let me ask you this...how many architects, structural engineers, or materials scientist have you presented your pizza box theory to? What are their names, and what have their responses been to you comparing a stack of cardboard to a skyscraper?

Wait, wait...let me guess.....

Richard Gage LOVED it!

thum_9777486fa44971ae0.jpg
 
So you wonder what the force is between impact and arrest? So you have still not understood? It cannot be bigger than the force applied at impact and it remains the same all the time until arrest. 1 N in the layman's example with a ship colliding with an ice berg. mg in the case of WTC1.

If mg is the most force a falling object can create at impact, you really should try the experiment I suggested earlier with the brick and your head.
 
Simpe reasons/explanations

So we disagree about the force developing at 'impact'. What force is required to decelerate a moving body to zero speed at 'impact'?

Evidently, if the deceleration takes zero time, the force is infinite but it only happens for (non-existing) rigid bodies, which is not the case in the example with ship versus iceberg. Then the 'impact' is just a soft 'collision' between a soft ship of little mass and a more solid iceberg with much more mass and there is ample time for the ship to decelerate to zero speed and I chose the parameters to suggest that the force during 'collision' is constant (to keep it simple). The force may of course vary during the deceleration. It is a function of many parameters, e.g. friction that may vary during the deceleration.

Same for the WTC1 top 'impact' against the lower structure.

In a real world it should have been just a soft 'collision' followed by local failures.

The WTC1 top is alleged to have dropped at near free fall (not seen of course on any video) but as the distance of this near free fall is so short (<3.7 meter), the speed attained at 'impact' is very small (a = 9.8 m/s² = g), or much less than that of ship versus iceberg.

So on 9/11 it should have been a soft 'collision', followed by local structural failures of the bodies involved, that are not rigid resulting, during deceleration of the top part to zero speed within a couple of seconds. Exactly as for ship versus iceberg. Or for Pizza Box Tower impactor against the Pizza Box Tower itself (no destruction at all - just a bounce). But no 'soft collision' or any sign of deceleration of a moving top part is seen on any videos of the WTC1 destruction. I have always wondered why! I cannot see the top part at all after 'impact'.

Only if you live in an NWO fantasy world and assume that the top is rigid and deceleration time is zero, then you get the strange Bazant results; e.g. that a ship colliding with an iceberg will, at constant, or increasing, speed, slice through the iceberg that in turn is 'globally collapsing' into snow flakes, and just sails on. I thought that it would make you think a little.
 
So we disagree about the force developing at 'impact'. What force is required to decelerate a moving body to zero speed at 'impact'?

There is no disagreement. You have not modeled the building and calculated the force at impact. If you do, you will confirm that the load is unbearable, as most of us saw on TV that awful morning.
 
There is no disagreement. You have not modeled the building and calculated the force at impact. If you do, you will confirm that the load is unbearable, as most of us saw on TV that awful morning.

No disagreement???? So what are we discussing in a friendly manner? Based on my assumptions, observations and calculations the load of the upper block after local failures below it, would still be carried by the structure below (as it had for 30 years). What you saw on TV that awful day was not a global collapse caused by a dropping upper block as explained afterwards using strange assumptions.
Using those same assumptions a ship that collides with an iceberg would slice through the iceberg, that is collapsing into snow flakes, and the ship would be undamaged and continue at constant speed. Do you believe that?
 
Can you specify exactly what local failures you would expect to see?

The WTC1 case is described at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm but let's summarize:

Assumptions:

Upper block weighs m = 33 000 000 kgs and free falls h = 3.7 m due to g = 9.82 m/s² on the lower structure. The force it applies on the lower structure at contact is 0.3241 gN and the available energy is 1.199 GJ. The lower structure applies the same force on the upper block.

The velocity v of the upper block at contact is quite low - 8.52 m/s.

At contact 240 cut off columns of both upper block and lower structure do not contact anything as they are assumed outside the foot print in the air.

Remaining 320 cut off columns of both upper block and lower structure are assumed to contact the top floor of the lower structure and the bottom floor of the upper block.

First group of local failures:

Thus there are 320 contact points columns/floors and the columns will punch holes in the floors at first contact. Local failures and energy absorbation and deceleration (and collapse arrest) have started to take place in both upper block and lower structure. Columns are assumed generally intact after these first contacts.

It is assumed that sections of locally damaged floors hinges down on floors below and contact one another causing friction + more local failures absorbing further energy and causing decelaration. Damaged floors in lower structure do not generally add any energy to the destruction as they are still fixed to lower structure columns (just hinging down).

The energy required to produce the first group of local failures can be calculated and its effects on further destruction (energy still available to produce local failures). Already at this stage the upper block must start to tilt due to the unsymmetrical distribution of contact points. Energy added due to upper block downward displacement must be corrected for.

Note that no shock waves, etc, are produced into the lower structure away from the contact points. In laymen's terms; the intact lower structure away from contact points have not got a clue what's going on above it - it is just local failures.

Note also that the upper block is subject to serious local failures from beginning and cannot be regarded at rigid, intact or indestructible.

Second group of local failures:

They are similar to the first group and are produced when the second floors of the upper block and lower structure are contacted by the columns. Now total four levels of floor sections are subject to local failures, there are more contacts points and further local failures between and in them consuming energy. At this stage the upper block is really tilting and there is contacts between perimeter walls of upper block/lower structure consuming energy.

The energy required to produce the second group of local failures can evidently be calculated and its effects on further destruction (energy still available to produce local failures).

And so on. These failures can go on until there are no more floors left in the upper block, when two of its perimeter walls (120 columns) drop down outside the lower structure. But more likely the destruction will stop earlier.

My gut feeling is that all energy available is consumed after 3 or 4 floors of both upper block and lower structure have been locally damaged and that then the destruction is arrested. The upper block is then stopped. The whole event from first contact until arrest may be 3 - 4 seconds incl. 1000's of local failures.

There are software available to do the above local failure analysises and energy absorbtion calculations. They have been used to simulate ship collisions, where much more energies and local steel structure failures were involved (and destruction was arrested after 8-10 seconds). Same software can be used to simulate ships colliding with icebergs.
 
I don't know if anyone noticed, but there are over 590 posts in this thread regarding the validity of a deranged twoofers pizza box theory....

Just trying to be helpful. Carry on.
 
I don't know if anyone noticed, but there are over 590 posts in this thread regarding the validity of a deranged twoofers pizza box theory....

Just trying to be helpful. Carry on.

Well - there were many comments and I had to answer many questions and there we are. It seems Bazant and NIST are clearly debunked by now! The Pizza Box Tower experiment proved that.
 
Well - there were many comments and I had to answer many questions and there we are. It seems Bazant and NIST are clearly debunked by now! The Pizza Box Tower experiment proved that.

I'm sure Bazant won't be able to sleep soundly tonight!
 
Well - there were many comments and I had to answer many questions and there we are. It seems Bazant and NIST are clearly debunked by now! The Pizza Box Tower experiment proved that.

I know you don't realize this, but your theory is grounds for being submitted to a mental facility.
 
Well - there were many comments and I had to answer many questions and there we are. It seems Bazant and NIST are clearly debunked by now! The Pizza Box Tower experiment proved that.
“And that is why we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.” - Sir Bedevere, Monty Python And The Holy Grail
 
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I know you don't realize this, but your theory is grounds for being submitted to a mental facility.

?? I created the Pizza Box Tower experiment and according to some lunatics on this thread some extra pizza boxes should crush it, if dropped on the tower, and the Pizza Box Tower should globally collapse into 1000's of pieces of pizza boxes. They produce strange theories of this; m dropping here and force F applied there, that the experiment is not to scale or that the material is funny, etc, etc. But in reality they could never explain their magic theories how to globally collapse a Pizza Box Tower ... or WTC1 for that matter.

Or they could! But then they had to mentally cheat. Assume extra pizza boxes dropping are rigid. That F is only applied on the PBT but not on the extra boxes dropping. That there is no friction. That impact takes 0 time. Etc, etc.

So they are living in a (NWO) fantasy world. But it is not a crime to do so. Like infidelity in marriage. No crime. But it is quite stupid to talk about it openly. Real gangsters never do that.
 
"? I created the Pizza Box Tower experiment and according to some lunatics on this thread some extra pizza boxes should crush it, if dropped on the tower, and the Pizza Box Tower should globally collapse into 1000's of pieces of pizza boxes. They produce strange theories of this; m dropping here and force F applied there, that the experiment is not to scale or that the material is funny, etc, etc. But in reality they could never explain their magic theories how to globally collapse a Pizza Box Tower ... or WTC1 for that matter."


:dl: :dl: :dl:

And this guy isn't taken seriously? How can that be?
 
I think Heiwa is toying with you all.....

No-one could seriously try to compare WTC to a pile of pizza boxes and i believe Heiwa knows it. Heiwa just likes watching you all argue with him over something that is patently ridiculous.

Why give Heiwa the entertainment he wants?
 
Well - there were many comments and I had to answer many questions and there we are. It seems Bazant and NIST are clearly debunked by now! The Pizza Box Tower experiment proved that.
I wonder if the orderlies know that you are missing from the ward??


I Am He
 
Let's see if I understand this. In simple terms, in order for collapse to arrest, the velocity after applying all accelerating (gravity) and decelerating (friction) forces has to be smaller than it was before.

velocity + accelerating force - decelerating force < velocity

Heiwa claims that the decelerating forces at most equal the accelerating forces. Let's assume the decelerating forces are at maximum.

accelerating force - decelerating force = 0

velocity + 0 < velocity

velocity < velocity


Heiwa, what have I gotten wrong about your analysis?
 

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