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have they found anything?

Well, yes, I did say "potentially". And it depends on their detecting technology. They may have radio receivers more sensitive than Aricebo. :cool:

:p All of a sudden I had an image of a giant asteroid (or small moon) carved out wiht a receiver on it, and I heard in my mind, "That's no moon!" I am such a geek!

AMB - You mean a horrible supposition, based on flawed understandings, is somehow even relevant to this discussion? Please explain...
 
Well, yes, I did say "potentially". And it depends on their detecting technology. They may have radio receivers more sensitive than Aricebo.

From the page linked earlier:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part6/section-12.html

For example, a TV picture having 5 MHz of bandwidth and 5
MWatts of power could not be detected beyond the solar system
even with a radio telescope with 100 times the sensitivity of the
305 meter diameter Arecibo telescope.
 
Well, yes, I did say "potentially". And it depends on their detecting technology. They may have radio receivers more sensitive than Aricebo. :cool:

I don't think this is likely.

I believe the limitation on detection range listed in the table I posted was based on the noise level at the particular frequency. In order to detect a signal its amplitude needs to be large enough to allow it to be detected out of the EM noise. At some point the sensitivity of a receiver ceases to be the limiting factor on the ability to detect a signal and the ambient noise at that frequency becomes the limiting factor.

It is possible to improve detection range by using a bigger antenna. This works because the greater directionality of the larger antenna improves the signal to noise ratio of the received EM radiation
 
Wrong.

If you refuse to reply to my numbered points:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4412527#post4412527

then you should at least address the Wiki article that also gives a number of explanations for why they're not here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#Explaining_the_paradox_theoretically

But at the very least, quit pretending that the argument that there are no other intelligent civilizations in our galaxy based on Fermi's Paradox is in any way a valid argument.

It may be that technological extraterrestrial civilizations exist, but that human beings cannot communicate with them because of various constraints: problems of scale or of technology; because their nature is simply too alien for meaningful communication; or because human society refuses to admit to evidence of their presence. From the Wiki article
Doesn't this sound like a conspiracy of Governments to silence on the Ufology subject?
 
It may be that technological extraterrestrial civilizations exist, but that human beings cannot communicate with them because of various constraints: problems of scale or of technology; because their nature is simply too alien for meaningful communication; or because human society refuses to admit to evidence of their presence. From the Wiki article
Doesn't this sound like a conspiracy of Governments to silence on the Ufology subject?

The only thing that makes sense here is the part that I've highlighted, and that only if by "scale" you mean how far apart things are in the galaxy and universe.

But I'm glad to see you've abandoned that Rare Earth stuff.
 
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Joe,

I'd also plausibly consider the "simply too alien" bit as well, only because we really have no idea what so ever what, if any, type of intelligence is out there. Sure, we have dreamt up all sorts of strange aliens with our stories, but nature always seems to manage to surprise us.

On the scale, again, if they have been advanced for a long, long time, maybe we're nothing more than a curious homnid that really hasn't shown true intelligence. As it is, many animals on our planet display a great deal of intelligence attributes, but for the most part, to humans they are just animals. I can see where AMB could be thinking on that.
 
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I'd also plausibly consider the "simply too alien" bit as well, only because we really have no idea what so ever what, if any, type of intelligence is out there.

That could be a reason why we end up unable to communicate with an ETI we come across in the future. But at this point, it's not a reason why we have no knowledge of them. In other words, the scale question: it could well be that there are about 100 ETI roughly equivalent in technological development with us scattered about the galaxy. Let's assume they've all had a similar history to ours--have had the ability to produce and receive radio waves for maybe 100 years or so. Chances are that they'll all be way too far apart for any two to make contact, at least for a very long time.

That's a very different sort of argument to the one that if we encounter an alien life form, its intelligence may be too alien for us ever to communicate.
 
amd, did you get the Darling book yet? I got mine yesterday and just read the chapter on the Rare Earth Theory today.

For the most part, it makes the exact same points we've brought up on this thread. You can't assume the Earth is so ideally suited to life that 1) complex barely arose here by the skin of its teeth, and 2) every last detail about the Earth and its history was essential for complex life to arise.

On the idea of punctuated equilibrium (interesting that no where in that chapter does Darling use that term, but that's clearly what he's talking about in terms of jump-starting or boosting evolution): he points out that the authors of R.E.T. want to have it both ways, sometimes pointing to episodes of instability as being necessary for the path that led to humans and sometimes that instability is anathema to the development of higher life forms.

The fact that life didn't become very complex on Earth for such a long time, might mean that the Earth is less than ideal. In R.E.T., though, you must assume that if anything were even a tiny bit different than the Earth--conditions and events--that complex life would be impossible. As I've said, this is unsupported speculation that could as easily go the other way--that is, that there could be conditions MORE amenable to complex life than the Earth.

As Darling says, the trend that started with the Copernican revolution will most likely continue, and we'll most likely find that there is nothing special or unique about the Earth. Without know anything else, I think it's safest to assume that we are an "average" planet that supports complex life. There's no reason to assume the Earth is the most ideal possible in the galaxy (or beyond!).

I was very surprised to see that my intuition about how all this sounded similar to Creationist talk has a very real source. Guillermo Gonzales, the astronomer that the authors of R.E.T. relied heavily on is, in fact, a Christian apologist. The very same arguments he uses in the context of Rare Earth are the ones he also uses to support the idea of a divine designer. From what I read, the authors were genuinely unaware of these other writings of Gonzales (even though, as he himself says, they weren't covert in the least). Just the language is what made me suspect something like this: fine-tuned, coincidence, accident, miraculous, etc.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
amd, did you get the Darling book yet? I got mine yesterday and just read the chapter on the Rare Earth Theory today.

Not yet. I can't wait to read it. I should get it sometime this week or at the latest, next week.
I still believe that all of the dice falling into place as they did to produce an Earth are not as common as most people think. Not forgetting that without our moon and size of it also makes animal life possible here. I have never denied that microbial life is probably teeming out there. Even in our own solar system, I'm convinced that microbes will be discovered in the not to distant future, perhaps even deep underground on Mars. The question then will be asked. Are these microbes the same as on Earth? If they are, then there has in the distant past been a cross flow of these microbes from Mars to Earth or vice a versa. If entirely different it will open up a Pandora's Box of possibilities.
 
Not forgetting that without our moon and size of it also makes animal life possible here.
Unproven speculation. You can forget that.

The point of the moon argument is that it's required to make the Earth's axial precession go faster and stay out of phase with its slower orbital precession. Darling points out 1) large collisions that caused a large moon might be the rule rather than exception and 2) you can get faster precession with a lot of other scenarios rather than a large moon, and 3) even if you have the resonance of coinciding precessions, the extra tilt that would give and ensuing climatic changes are still gradual over millions of years and life on Earth has flourished under more severe traumas.

In fact, as noted above, a big part of refuting the R.E.T. is that trauma of one sort or another seems to have driven the biggest bursts of evolution. This cozy "just right" planet as a prerequisite to complex life isn't even supported in our sample size of one.
 
If the Earth had no suffered a catastrophic collision with a comet 65 million years ago that wiped out around 70% of existing life, including the dinosaurs that inhabited this planet for around twenty million years, we would not now be here to even ponder these questions. And, by the way, why didn't a dinosaur evolve intelligence? surely they had enough time.
See what I'm getting at? We are here today due to a string of coincidences that perhaps don't happen too often in the universe. We live in a HZ of the galaxy that has only around 10% of the total stars.
Just as life can only persist on a planet at a specific distance from it's star, it seems like the star itself must orbit within a certain ring around the galatic core.
The outer edge of this ring is set by the minimum metallicity required to form rocky planets, the inner boundry by various hazards posed by the central realm of the galaxy, such as the greater danger of close shaves with other stars and nearby supernovae. Even a solar system futher out in the disc is not safe, as regular crossings of the spiral arms carry similar risks. The safest place for life is probably within a thin halo around the galaxy, not to close to the center, and not too far as the edge of the galaxy as that has not enoegh mettalicity to form rocky planets and therefore, us.
 
You're just repeating the same stuff you said pages and pages ago that's already been answered.

I've had enough. The conversation isn't going anywhere.
 
I'm afraid Joe that we will not live long enough to get a definite answer on this most intriguing of subjects.
 
Jeezus H Christ. This thread is still alive? Has anything changed?
 
Depends, have you abandoned the "Rare Earth" nonsense as a prerquisite for an advanced civilization? (Sorry, haven't been keeping track.) :p
 
This is one of those rare threads that goes on and on without an obviously crazy person to drive it.

It is also a thread that despite a whole lot of effort by the people involved I never exactly understood exactly what the issues of contention were.

Everybody seems to agree that given the vast number of stars in a galaxy and the vast number of galaxies that some form of sentient life probably exists outside the earth.

Everybody seems to agree that as of yet there is no probative evidence for a visit to Earth by sentient beings from outside the Earth.

It seems that nobody could disagree with amb's overview of the reasons why sentient life hasn't been detected on the Earth:

It may be that technological extraterrestrial civilizations exist, but that human beings cannot communicate with them because of various constraints: problems of scale or of technology; because their nature is simply too alien for meaningful communication; or because human society refuses to admit to evidence of their presence.

I think everybody would agree that Fermi's paradox, that while interesting, does not provide a definitive answer as to whether there is sentient life that is within range of contact from the earth.

So what is the issue that people disagree about? Is it that some people think that sentient life in the galaxy is rare and some other people think it is very rare? Is it that some people think the chances of contact with alien sentient life on earth is low and some people think it's somewhat more likely than that?

My gut feel about the situation is that human beings will never detect another civilization with sentient life. This is based on my view that sentient life is rare and that there are far too few places where sentient life seems possible within a range where communication is possible to provide much of a chance of contact. Is this the notion that some people are disagreeing with?

If one is looking for an argument from authority that I am wrong one needs to look no further than Mr. Drake himself who seems to have gotten more enthused of late about the possibility of contact. My own horribly amateurish take on Mr. Drake's thoughts on this is that he underestimates the importance of data that has been found since he first published his equation that suggests that sentient life is even less likely than he originally estimated and that he exaggerates the possibility of sentient life on non-earth like planets that have been detected since he published his equation originally.
 

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