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have they found anything?

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We are here!
We are here!
We are here!
We are here!
 
Radrook said:
I thought America had been already colonised by the Indians when Christopher showed up.
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Perhaps I should have added; colonised by a superior civilization. A more advanced one. That's evolution, survival of the strongest or fittest. That's the way it works
Same thing here in Australia. When Captain Cook landed here, the Aboriginals were still living as they did 40 thousand years ago. And would still be doing so today.
 
This is what theist find too hard to accept. The cold, cruel, fact of evolution by natural selection. Survival of the fittest. 99% of all earth life has in the 3-4 billion years of it's existence become extinct. Extinction is the norm, not the exception.
 
Nevertheless. more advanced societies conquer less advanced ones. Been like that since the year dot.[ Most of the time.] From time to time some societies revert back because of corruption. Look at Mugabe in ex-Rhodesia.
 
Ottis said:
The definite existence of ETL would answer one of the basic questions that I've had since childhood. I believe it would make a HUGE difference in many peoples outlook on life and our place in the universe.
I'm not saying anything against Soapy Sam, I just don't understand his mindset..
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You're not alone there:D

Look, you would be interested. So would I, though to a lesser extent. My argument is that most people have more pressing interests and would care very little if at all.

Lets be clear what we're talking about.
SETI are searching for patterned radio signals from extra terrestrial sources, which are not produced by known natural process- ie not pulsars or whatever.
This, they infer, would imply the existence of ET intelligent life.

First , that inference is not rock solid. There could be natural processes we know nothing about that might produce an apparent signal. In fact that's exactly what happened when Jocelyn Bell discovered the first pulsar. But let's ignore that. Assume they find something "real".

How far away is the source? If it was "in our backyard", we would have found it before now, without SETI. The larger the sphere we search, the higher the chance of a find- but also the further back in time that signal originated.
The highest probability is that we find signals thousands, or tens of thousands of years old. In that case, the chance of ever communicating with the source is zero. Each message would take longer than recorded human history.

Let's say we get amazingly lucky and find a source less than 100 light years away. We must now translate the signal . That won't happen in a week or a year, as we have no referents. (In the case of the novel "Contact", the message deliberately included such referents, making it easy to break. Any real message from space is likely to be a communication between two aliens (probably alien machines) that we happen to intercept, not a message tailored for us. Let's say after a decade we have enough of a sample to send a simple response."Hi! We're here!" We will get no answer in my lifetime, or probably in yours, unless you are very youthful indeed. (I'm nearly 53 and that is a factor in "understanding my mindset").

Surely, it would be fantastic to know there is other intelligence out there, but practically how would it affect you personally? And you are actually interested in such matters. I guarantee the majority of people are not. They care about what happens to their family, their neighbourhood, maybe their country, but they don't give a damn about what happens ten thousand miles away. Why would they care what happens 100 light years away?

My bet is that after a brief flurry of interest in the press, most of it ill informed, the whole issue would be left to the scientists in a matter of weeks.
ETA- Except for the conspiracy theorists, who would create an industry denying it was real.


Obviously a deliberate "Contact" scenario is very different. In that case I think I'd be as excited as anyone else. But how likely is that?
 
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People already believe in extraterrestrials-God and his angels and it definitely has had a deep impact on their lives. : )
 
Quite. But that is as you say, belief. Belief has a far greater impact on some lives than knowledge.
If SETI had a contact, it would be a scientific fact- which would be of little interest to those who believe in angels.
 
bigred said:
I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this./QUOTE]

For one, they pioneered the practical application of distributed computing over the Internet by donated CPU cycles. Those same techniques are now being used in research with more "down-to-earth" benefits.
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Strange that someone who claims to love factual accuracy should consider it a virtue to blatantly misrepresent a group of people that way.

BTW

Denying existence of something doesn't prove it doesn't exist. Absence of proof doesn't constitute proof of absence. That's a basic given. To smugly assert otherwise is unscientific- a mind-set which is supposedly anathema to atheists.
 
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A needle in a giant haystack. I wish it wasn't so. But I doubt there is any intelligent life within at least 100-200 light years away. That's not to say there's NO life closer to us, there may well be marine life under the frozen oceans of Titan or other moons in our own back yard. But intelligence may be very rare. Intelligence enough to send radio signals into the cosmos are probably a factor of 1 in a million.
 
Radrook said:
Strange that someone who claims to love factual accuracy should consider it a virtue to blatantly misrepresent a group of people that way.

BTW

Denying existence of something doesn't prove it doesn't exist. Absence of proof doesn't constitute proof of absence. That's a basic given. To smugly assert otherwise is unscientific- a mind-set which is supposedly anathema to atheists.
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What post are you responding to?
 
Soapy Sam said:
Quite. But that is as you say, belief. Belief has a far greater impact on some lives than knowledge.
If SETI had a contact, it would be a scientific fact- which would be of little interest to those who believe in angels.
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I'm not so sure.. I think it might get a few people thinking, especially if certain questions or ideas are given much thought. Such as, if there are aliens, was there an alien version of Jesus? It would also seem that God didn't create the universe just for us.

I'm not saying the pope is going to throw his hands up in the air and say they had a good run, but it's all over now. Some will just deny it outright, some nutters may even say it's the word of God, but I think there would be a few that give it serious thought with respect to their beliefs.

I might be overestimating the number of people that this affects, but I think it will to some extent anyway.
 
It would definitely have a great impact on all religious people since their views about their place in the universe might have to be modified to accommodate that discovery. There is nothing in the Bible, for example, that tells us that we are the only material creatures with intelligence in this vast universe. In fact, some have suggested that certain scriptures which refer to the host of heavens is referring to those extraterrestrials. However, for those religionists who vehemently insist that Man alone reflects the divine image, it will definitely require a complete about face if they are proven wrong.

Issues such as the following would immediately emerge:
Should these creatures be considered our spiritual brothers? An investigation as to whether they in fact do reflect God's image in terms of love justice wisdom and power determine the conclusion. For example, if the aliens turn out to be hostile to mankind then they will be seen as a race of sinful beings perhaps influenced by Satan or their equivalent of one. If they are benign, then they will be not so readily evaluated and the evaluation will be between being our spiritual equals or else somehow our inferiors.

All this would depend on their moral standards and how those moral standards affect their individual members and other creatures they might chance to come in contact with.

But most importantly in this religious evaluation would be whether they do or they do not believe in a creator. If they don't, and claim to never have, never have, then they will be perceived as our spiritual inferiors. If they do, then the nature of that belief will have to be examined and evaluated. What kind of deity do they worship. Is there concept so alien as to be irreconcilable with the Christian one? Or does it describe essentially the same God from a different but yet acceptable perspective?
 
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I agree with physicist Paul Davies. Seti is a good thing but very much doubt it will ever find other intelligent creatures. It's like dropping a nail clipping into the Pacific ocean.
Even if some life form is ever found, how do we communicate if it's 100 light years away.
We say ''hello how are you'', their response ''not bad'' will take 100 years to get here. Very hard to hold a conversation. At best, future generations may know that we are not alone in this infinate universe. If only for that purpose, then it's worth it.
 
a) we know elk exist, it isn't an extraordinary claim
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The existence of elk as a species was not in question - the existence of elk in the hunting area was.

Perhaps I should have added; colonised by a superior civilization. A more advanced one. That's evolution, survival of the strongest or fittest. That's the way it works
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Appeals to tradition and nature constitute logical fallacies. I subscribe to a Scandinavian-wide history magazine, and this issue featured a quote from a physician who said it was perfectly natural that half of the country's children died before the age of eight, and that it was pointless to worry about this since it was the way nature worked.

b) elk hunting doesn't cost millions of dollars
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Christianity costs billions of dollars, doesn't it? Have you proven the existence of God yet?

c) one can use your analogy to argue that we should continue believing in gods, and just about every other topic
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No, because SETI doesn't really believe in aliens. SETI says there might be aliens out there, technically, and that we should investigate the possibility. This is a far cry from believing in a specific god. Look at it this way: if SETI suddenly sat down and wrote a book describing what the aliens looked like, where they lived, how their mindsets worked, how they evolved and what wars and other struggles and triumphs they went through, what they wanted of us, and how their civilization would end - all without having seen a single alien or even finding proof they existed in the first place - then it would be a decent comparison to Christendom. As it stands, though, the SETI stance is more reminiscent of agnosticism.

We say ''hello how are you'', their response ''not bad'' will take 100 years to get here. Very hard to hold a conversation. At best, future generations may know that we are not alone in this infinate universe. If only for that purpose, then it's worth it.
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How far can our stronger radio signals travel, anyhow? I heard in a documentary (Life Without People, or whatever it was called) that they dissipate into background noise after only a light year or two?

Even if some life form is ever found, how do we communicate if it's 100 light years away.
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I don't really care too much, to be honest. I'd be overwhelmed enough to realize there was intelligent life out there to get to the communication bit:).
 
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