"...have there ever been proven conspiracies?..."


Because this solipsism pervades every single argument you make. According to you, every historical event must be questioned, even if only with abstract justification and no evidence. You argue the completeness fallacy at every opportunity. Yet you seem not to want this to be considered conspiracism.
 
Because this solipsism pervades every single argument you make.

Solipsism: 'the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.'

How is that definition relevant to me at all?

According to you, every historical event must be questioned, even if only with abstract justification and no evidence.

Besides being a false generalization, the way I look at things is from a historical perspective, you know, asking What Happened (you should try it sometime...wait...sorry...forgot...you think asking What Happened is falling into CT territory). When I find events that leave What Happened out in the wind, curiosity takes over.

You argue the completeness fallacy at every opportunity. Yet you seem not to want this to be considered conspiracism.

Why should it be? Are you suggesting that lawyers/politicians/scientists/historians/etc are CT's because they too push for What Happened and a thorough accounting of whatever they're engaged in? Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity?
 
Why should it be? Are you suggesting that lawyers/politicians/scientists/historians/etc are CT's because they too push for What Happened and a thorough accounting of whatever they're engaged in? Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity?

As a historian, allow me to comment with an illustration of the problem you're overlooking, something that came up on Tuesday in an undergraduate dissertation supervision meeting.

I have a student who wants to look at the mafia in the JFK years for her final year thesis, because she twigged that the HSCA records would likely provide a rich cache of material to research mafia activities in their own right and for their own sake. She is not necessarily interested in whether the mafia killed Kennedy, nor does she need to be, because the HSCA investigated this thoroughly, to the limits of what is reasonably possible, and was strongly motivated to do so because several key staffers and researchers were strongly enamoured of the mafia-killed-JFK theory. Even armed with subpoena power and the might of the House of Representatives behind them, several conspiracy theorists were utterly unable to prove their pet conspiracy theory.

However, thanks to this quirk, the HSCA archive, available online now, contains multiple FBI subject files on mafia bosses and their associates. On Tuesday, we searched around the archive and eventually found the A-Z breakdown of subject files. So I clicked on Santo Traficante's file and found there were upwards of 2,900 separate FBI documents chronicling their surveillance and monitoring of the Miami mafia boss through the 1960s into the 1970s. That was just one file.

Whatever the student does with this material, it's quite clear she will have far too much to include in the 9,000 words permitted for the final year dissertation. She can very easily choose to write about the mafia's activities, or the FBI's investigations of the mafia, not only during the early 1960s but apparently also into the Johnson years and beyond. Without ever needing to bother herself with JFK theories, because the sources can be used for multiple purposes.

By contrast, the FBI's electronic reading room has far less online digitised material on organised crime, although it has at least some. Since the student is based in the UK and would not be able to visit the US National Archives to do a systematic research project for what is after all an undergraduate exercise, then the HSCA cache of materials is a bonanza. If a British student was undertaking a PhD on the same subject, then they'd be expected to travel to the US to go through already-declassified files and maybe make some FOIA requests to winkle out some more material. I'd also suggest for a more advanced project locating trial transcripts and other legal documentation, which are not necessarily archived in College Park. Very likely a PhD student attempting such a project on the mafia of the 1960s would drown just as utterly as the undergraduate is about to in too much material.

And this is just dipping toes into the evidence for one of the hypothesised co-conspirators in the assassination of JFK.

A better way to arrive at a sane conclusion about the case is to look at the evidence for the assassination itself and at the evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald. This is a much more manageable quantity, and is largely but not entirely to be found in the Warren Commission investigation.

If you or any other suspicious mind can take ALL of the WC evidence plus any further 22.11.63-specific materials gathered at other times, and examine it in such a way that you are left with a genuine, legitimate suspicion that anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald dunnit or helped dunnit, without ignoring or throwing away a single piece of that 22.11.63 evidence, then and only then do you have a justified case to move onto the CIA, mafia etc records that are already in the public domain.

After all, you were discussing shots from the front a moment ago - quintessential 22.11.63-specific evidence.

Until you've dealt with what's on your plate right now, you're not really in a position to demand more evidence - there's so much already out there, how do you know your questions won't be answered if you avoid reading it?
 
Problem with that, sorry. CTers don't care about their topic. They simply use it as a means of attacking the party or parties involved. They can shrug off fatal flaws to their theories because the fact surrounding the event are only a means to an end and can't be allowed to diminish primary goal, that being the slander, libel, and calumny aimed at the target.
 
Solipsism: 'the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.'

How is that definition relevant to me at all?

Because solipsism denies the inductive leap, as do you in nearly all cases. And because in my opinion a solipsist approach is what drives your abstract paranoia. Study solipsism rather than just copypasting from Wikipedia. It goes into all the notions of surety of information and knowledge that you infuse in all your lines of reasoning.

Besides being a false generalization...

Nonsense. It was the basis for springing your trap in your poll thread. Your "gotcha" was based on the alleged necessity of answering generally yes to that type of question. The generalization is entirely yours.

Why should it be? Are you suggesting that lawyers/politicians/scientists/historians/etc are CT's because they too push for What Happened and a thorough accounting of whatever they're engaged in?

Of course not. These professions that you name actually formulate hypotheses and test them. Lawyers, in court. Politicians, in the national debate. Scientists in the laboratory. Historians in the field.

Conspiracy theorists do none of that. They "Just Ask Questions" and never go beyond that, some of them even staunchly denying that it's their duty to do so. You won't even answer direct questions. So yes, there is a huge difference between what those noble professions do and what you do. Huge.

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity?

Who says I am? My skepticism is driven entirely by a rejection of a certain type of mediocrity, and that mediocrity is exactly conspiracy theorists who obtain no relevant training, develop no relevant skills or expertise, do no research of their own, and patently avoid any sort of meaningful test of their claims. That in my mind is mediocrity. It's a shabby semblance of erudition that serves only to recruit the gullible and to vaunt the conspiracy theorist in his own mind as some kind of intellectual commentator.
 
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I thought that when a lawman suspects collusion and has a Conspiracy Theory for it, he could technically qualify as a Conspiracy Theorist because he has a Conspiracy Theory.

If the lawman is not a Conspiracy Theorist, what does he have if not a Conspiracy Theory ?

Was there a time when 'Conspiracy Theorist' merely meant a person with a Conspiracy Theory rather than what you say it means, or was it always thus?

I asked Miriam Webster for Conspiracy Theorist. Nada. Only Conspiracy Theory comes up, and they haven't added woowoo to their definition of Conspiracy Theory.
 
I thought that when a lawman suspects collusion and has a Conspiracy Theory for it, he could technically qualify as a Conspiracy Theorist because he has a Conspiracy Theory.

If the lawman is not a Conspiracy Theorist, what does he have if not a Conspiracy Theory ?

Was there a time when 'Conspiracy Theorist' merely meant a person with a Conspiracy Theory rather than what you say it means, or was it always thus?

I asked Miriam Webster for Conspiracy Theorist. Nada. Only Conspiracy Theory comes up, and they haven't added woowoo to their definition of Conspiracy Theory.
Only because the dictionary has not been updated to reflect the synonym that CT=crackpot.
 
I thought that when a lawman suspects collusion and has a Conspiracy Theory for it, he could technically qualify as a Conspiracy Theorist because he has a Conspiracy Theory.

If the lawman is not a Conspiracy Theorist, what does he have if not a Conspiracy Theory ?

We covered this in previous posts. Why in the world do you insist on asserting that LEOs would describe their suspicions or initial investigations as conspiracy theories? No one talks that way.

I asked Miriam Webster for Conspiracy Theorist. Nada. Only Conspiracy Theory comes up, and they haven't added woowoo to their definition of Conspiracy Theory.

Fine. Just because a particular dictionary gives a single definition of a term does not mean that definition of the term is in widespread usage. Or that that definition is so commonly used that it provides confusion. No one talks that way.

Nothing is lost by using only the woowoo definition. Criminals do not gain an advantage. Legitimate researchers, investigators, and law enforcement officials do not lose respect, prestige, or seriousness.
 
I thought that when a lawman suspects collusion and has a Conspiracy Theory for it, he could technically qualify as a Conspiracy Theorist because he has a Conspiracy Theory.

If the lawman is not a Conspiracy Theorist, what does he have if not a Conspiracy Theory ?

Was there a time when 'Conspiracy Theorist' merely meant a person with a Conspiracy Theory rather than what you say it means, or was it always thus?

I asked Miriam Webster for Conspiracy Theorist. Nada. Only Conspiracy Theory comes up, and they haven't added woowoo to their definition of Conspiracy Theory.

Well, Miriam Webster is a bad source then. As for Merriam-Webster,

Full Definition of CONSPIRACY THEORY

: a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators
— conspiracy theorist noun
 
I thought that when a lawman suspects collusion and has a Conspiracy Theory for it, he could technically qualify as a Conspiracy Theorist because he has a Conspiracy Theory.

The difference is that a lawman has a constitutionally limited time in which to attempt to make his case by producing evidence, or else abandon it. He doesn't get to keep accusing people for decades.

We have gone several rounds explaining the difference between conspiracism and real investigation.

I asked Miriam Webster for Conspiracy Theorist. Nada. Only Conspiracy Theory comes up, and they haven't added woowoo to their definition of Conspiracy Theory.

Where else did you look? Or did you stop after one source?
 
The only ones who pay any real attention to conspiracy myths are Hollywood and the trashy book industry.

If you include certain political commentators on television under "Hollywood" I would agree.
You also have a few politicians and religious leaders who have exploited conspiracy myths for their purposes. Whether they bought into the theories themsleves or merely thought it something good for their followers to believe in is a completly different story.
 
If you include certain political commentators on television under "Hollywood" I would agree.
You also have a few politicians and religious leaders who have exploited conspiracy myths for their purposes. Whether they bought into the theories themsleves or merely thought it something good for their followers to believe in is a completly different story.

But they don't take them seriously, they just use them to manipulate idiots.
 
Old, but applicable, for some...


For example, just this week – after Tony Blair was confronted by the Iraq Inquiry with evidence that he had used lies to sell the Iraq war – Blair dismissed the entire Iraq Inquiry as simply being part of Britain’s “obsession with conspiracy theories“. (Not only did Blair know that Saddam possessed no WMDs, but the French this week accused Blair of using of ‘Soviet-style’ propaganda in run-up to the Iraq war).

For example, Obama’s current head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs – and a favored pick for the Supreme Court (Cass Sunstein) – previously:

Defined a conspiracy theory as “an effort to explain some event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role.”

He has called for the use of state power to crush conspiracy allegations of state wrongdoing. See this, this and this.


Of course, the American government has been busted in the last couple of years in numerous conspiracies. For example, William K. Black – professor of economics and law, and the senior regulator during the S & L crisis – says that that the government’s entire strategy now – as during the S&L crisis – is to cover up how bad things are (“the entire strategy is to keep people from getting the facts”).Similarly , 7 out of the 8 giant, money center banks went bankrupt in the 1980’s during the “Latin American Crisis”, and the government’s response was to cover up their insolvency.

And the government spied on American citizens (even before 9/11 … confirmed here and here), while saying “we don’t spy”. The government tortured prisoners in Iraq, but said “we don’t torture”.

In other words, high-level government officials have conspired to cover up the truth.

More examples at link
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010...s-on-diffusing-criticism-of-the-powerful.html
 
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Psychologists and the Mitchell Effect

John Mitchell was the Attorney-General during the Nixon administration.

His wife - Martha Mitchell - told her psychologist that top White House officials were engaged in illegal activities. Her psychologist labeled these claims as caused by mental illness.

georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/05/conspiracies-and-martha-mitchell-effect.html
 

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