• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Has remote viewing already been tested?

Once again I do not know if RV works but it may. It is my belief that you people are too readily dismissing it just as you are too eager to dismiss almost everything that you do not understand.

It is almost like an illness I tell you --an illness. The negativity festers throughout all aspects of your life. Soon your wife is leaving you for some happy guy (that is if you even have someone in the first place).

Trust me, your overwhelming negativity is a curse not a blessing.
 
olaf said:
i do know that many people here think they know a lot more than they really do. It is as if the people here think that almost everything has been discovered.

I'm curious about this statement in the context of the thread. Most of the discussion has been about how to design a reliable test to find out about something we don't know about. If we already thought we knew everything, why would we be suggesting ways to study it?

Do I expect positive results from these tests? No. But I could be wrong. Knowing that I could be wrong, I want a way to make sure that my bias and opinions are out of the equation.

Designing a test means we're trying to answer a question; quite the opposite of assuming we already know the answer. If we already knew, we'd say don't bother.
 
The whole thing is absurd. No matter who does the research anywhere in the world it will be shredded by the flimsiest arguments-- as done by "shapes in the clouds."

Even if they have to resort to "you cheated" or "you just wanted funding" then that is what they will say.

it is a waste of time for me to talk about design when i don't even know if RV works or much about it.

All I know is that almost everything unexplainable gets dismissed here my a fair number of people on this forum.

Are the people here just a gathering of malcontents who happen to have science backgrounds? I sometimes think that if you had 30 points shaved off your IQ you might be sitting around a bar ripping on ethnic groups or something.

Once again, the negative bashers are the antithesis of science. It is okay to question these issues the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers.
 
olaf said:
The whole thing is absurd. No matter who does the research anywhere in the world it will be shredded by the flimsiest arguments-- as done by "shapes in the clouds."

Even if they have to resort to "you cheated" or "you just wanted funding" then that is what they will say.

it is a waste of time for me to talk about design when i don't even know if RV works or much about it.

All I know is that almost everything unexplainable gets dismissed here my a fair number of people on this forum.

Are the people here just a gathering of malcontents who happen to have science backgrounds? I sometimes think that if you had 30 points shaved off your IQ you might be sitting around a bar ripping on ethnic groups or something.

Once again, the negative bashers are the antithesis of science. It is okay to question these issues the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers.
olaf, old son, you seem to be talking to yourself now. You certainly haven't properly addressed any of the issues or questions raised above. Why not?
Oh, and lay off the pathetic insults, they do nothing for your case.
 
olaf said:
Once again I do not know if RV works but it may. It is my belief that you people are too readily dismissing it just as you are too eager to dismiss almost everything that you do not understand.
Skeptics do not dismiss claims out of hand, a rather rigorous process of scientific scrutiny ought to take place before skeptics make a readily definitive conclusion.

However, there is a tendency for paranormal claims to produce nothing in the way of quantification or qualification, so its not at all "wrong" that a skeptic might think a little more pessimistically when it comes to claims of the paranormal.

Note: Pessimism is not equal to depression/unhappniess/etc.

It is almost like an illness I tell you --an illness. The negativity festers throughout all aspects of your life.
Hmmmm...

How did you determine that skeptics are negative or unhappy?

Soon your wife is leaving you for some happy guy (that is if you even have someone in the first place).
Now thats just silliness :p

Trust me, your overwhelming negativity is a curse not a blessing.
The "ignorance is bliss" mentality is nothing to be proud of, I'm a much better person for being educated even if it does not cause me to be happy.
 
olaf said:
Once again I do not know if RV works but it may. It is my belief that you people are too readily dismissing it just as you are too eager to dismiss almost everything that you do not understand.

I saw a grand total of one post in this thread (Soapy Sam's admitted rant) which simply denied RV works. Who do you feel is dismissing it? Can you quote anything else in this thread where a skeptic says that RV is impossible? I'll say for myself that I absolutely think RV is possible. Based on my reading (like the PEAR work referenced earlier) I doubt that it actually happens as claimed. But I'm always willing to change my mind given good evidence.

And I doubt that anyone here dismisses anything they don't understand. Neither do we blindly accept it. What we do is try to understand it. Is the fact that we want to test RV what you find to be equivalent to dismissing it? Right now it seems like your position is that you don't know, but think it's probable, where others' positions are that they don't know, but think it's improbable. Either way, shouldn't we investigate further? Isn't that exactly what's been suggested?

It is almost like an illness I tell you --an illness. The negativity festers throughout all aspects of your life. Soon your wife is leaving you for some happy guy (that is if you even have someone in the first place).

Trust me, your overwhelming negativity is a curse not a blessing.

I'm continually baffled by this attitude that someone who doesn't take every claim at face value is a mean and miserable person. Let me assure you that this couldn't be further from the truth. The used car salesman says the car's never been in an accident; if I then look up the VIN online to make sure, is this "overwhelming negativity"? Or is it just being prudent?

I've been fooled by people before. I've been fooled by the world in general before. I'd rather not get fooled again. Keeping an eye out for getting fooled does not diminish my joy, my love, or my passions in any way.
 
Oh, and lay off the pathetic insults, they do nothing for your case.
it may seem like an insult but possibly it may force some of you to take a good long look at your motives.

ask yourself why am i such a pessimistic skeptic? why do i feel the need to rip on everything that is different. (acupuncture is a good example).

does my negativity give me a sense of power and security?

does it give me a chance to feel smarter than the next guy?
 
Flat Earther: The world is flat as a board!

Skeptic: Are you sure? I mean, it looks flat, but has anyone tested it?

Flat Earther: Tested it? Look around, man!!! Open your eyes!!! The truth is right in front of you, but you refuse to see it!!!

Skeptic: Well, that may be, but no one's really checked it, have they? I mean, maybe it's square or round or something?

Flat Earther: Round? Are you nuts? Things would roll off the side!! You're talking crazy here!! Thinking you know everything, and you know nothing!!! Round, hah!!!

Skeptic: Look, I'm not saying it is, but the stars and planets seem to be round, why should the earth be different? And if it is flat, that's a whole new area to study. Of course, it's meaningless to speculate until we test to find out if it's flat. I haven't seen any test showing it's flat, so I'm not really sure.

Flat Earther: You're so damn negative. I swear, we can't even beat the obvious into you. You're so down on everything, it's like dogma!!! Test, when you can see it with your own eyes!!!! You and your agenda can go fall off your round earth, I'm going home to discuss things with rational people who can see how flat the earth is!!!



Anything in that sound familiar?

Olaf, the flat earthers were the ones who didn't bother to test or examine their beliefs. And in any case, the idea that a majority thought it was flat is something of a myth. The educated have known the earth was round since the ancient Greeks. In fact, Eratosthenes made the first accurate measurement of the Earth's diameter (using the distances at which the base and top of a tower were visible). These were the people who questioned, who tested, who wanted evidence that made these discoveries.

Also, contrary to what you wish were true, it is not only the job but the responsibility of science to critically examine EVERY new idea. Read my sig. If an idea is true, then the tests will show it; it can't be torn down by legitimate study and experiment. People claim skeptics cry foul in psychis experiements because we want tighter controls; if the effect were real "psychics" should be lining up for such strict testing. With every real effect through the history of scientific thought, stricter testing and tighter controls have caused an effect to be more pronounced, more obvious, and told us more about the effect. In psi, the opposite seems true, which leads one to a different conclusion.

Now, I am not saying there is or isn't anything to RV. I can say I have yet to find anything that convinces me. However, the ONLY way to find out more, and the ONLY way to get it accepted in the scientific community at large, and the ONLY way to silence the skeptics, is to do those stricter, more tightly controlled tests and prove the effect is there. A simple, objective test that can be easily scored without requiring any subjective grading. Several ideas have been posted here and in other threads, many requiring not much more than a bit of time and some volunteers. The fact that these tests are not done, or very poorly documented by those who claim to have done these types of experiments, is highly suggestive that the effect is not due to any sort or paranormal ability. As others have mentioned, there's a million dollars if an RVer can pass a simple test similar to those people have suggested here; in any case if the ability were real, and I could do it, I would be RVing the hell out of corporate board meetings and retiring in style on the huge profits I made doing insider trading, just for one example.

My point, to sum it all up: If the effect is real, stricter and better testing can only further reveal it. If the effect is not real, such testing can help us put it in the dust bin and get on to other, more promising research where our time and money can be more productively spent.
 
olaf said:
it is a waste of time for me to talk about design when i don't even know if RV works or much about it.

Isn't that a good reason to try to understand more? Or is "the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers"?

All I know is that almost everything unexplainable gets dismissed here my a fair number of people on this forum.


So, when you say that people are dismissing RV, you say that because other people have dismissed other things elsewhere? Wouldn't it be better to argue the actual positions expressed in three pages worth of RV discussion? To do otherwise is simple prejudice. Perhaps, regarding skeptics positions, "you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers"?

Are the people here just a gathering of malcontents who happen to have science backgrounds? I sometimes think that if you had 30 points shaved off your IQ you might be sitting around a bar ripping on ethnic groups or something.

And yet, the only insulting posts are coming from you. "Overwhelming negativity"?

It is okay to question these issues the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers.

If I tell you one more time that many minds are not made up yet, and point to this whole thread of discussion that says so over and over - will you stop repeating this? It is simply false. If you cannot accept that what is actually in this thread is different from your experience in other threads, then what can I say except that "the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers."
 
It's like I said before. If RV is real it won't end up being something like a calculator (in that you can punch in numbers and get instant accurate results)

it will be more like something that has to be worked at very hard to achieve. something that is sketchy and inaccurate at times. This is probably why it is still very controversial. of course it could be that it does not exist.

However, my hunch is that it does work to some degree or another but testing might be tricky business.
 
If I tell you one more time that many minds are not made up yet, and point to this whole thread of discussion that says so over and over - will you stop repeating this? It is simply false. If you cannot accept that what is actually in this thread is different from your experience in other threads, then what can I say except that "the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers."

okay -- gotcha. olaf thank you.
 
I'm surprised no-one else has asked this question, but Chemical Penguin mentions he'd been using a web-cam to chat to his g/f. Is there any possibility that he may have seen the bottle when using the web cam before the "experiment", thus that image popped into his head?
 
Dids said:
I'm surprised no-one else has asked this question, but Chemical Penguin mentions he'd been using a web-cam to chat to his g/f. Is there any possibility that he may have seen the bottle when using the web cam before the "experiment", thus that image popped into his head?
Please don't confuse the issue with facts! :)
 
olaf said:
It's like I said before. If RV is real it won't end up being something like a calculator (in that you can punch in numbers and get instant accurate results)

it will be more like something that has to be worked at very hard to achieve. something that is sketchy and inaccurate at times. This is probably why it is still very controversial.

That just doesn't matter.

If it only works one time in one hundred, that just means you need to do ten thousand trials instead of one hundred. If it only works one time in one thousand, we do a hundred thousand trials.

If it works at all, you can detect it statistically with enough trials.

However, my hunch is that it does work to some degree or another but testing might be tricky business.

It's been thoroughly tested and no evidence exists for it.

That makes it more unlikely to be true than just about any random superpower I could "have a hunch" exists.

I could have a hunch that by crossing ones fingers and toes a human can influence the rate at which flies crawl up a wall. Is this likely to be true? Well, there's no reason to think it's true based on our knowledge of the world but it hasn't been specifically tested.

Whereas RV not only makes no sense given our current understanding of the world, but it's also been specifically tested and no evidence has been found for it.

Thinking that RV is highly likely to be rubbish at this point is not being mean and closed-minded, it's being sensible.
 
Ummm... Olaf, do you believe in witchcraft? If not, why not.
 
olaf said:
it may seem like an insult but possibly it may force some of you to take a good long look at your motives.

ask yourself why...

Hey olaf... you know what I'm asking myself, in retrospective?

Why hasn't olaf answered my original question about his original comments?

Don't remember what I'm talking about?

olaf said:


i have been doing some research into this million prize and it seems incredibly phony. i just read a quote where randi stated that he ALWAYS has an out.

Call me skeptical, but a quote from where?

olaf said:
I was surfing the web a couple of nights ago. I will see if I can come up with it.

Overall I think it is dangerous that a magician is involved in the whole process of determining what may or may not be valid.

the hoops that he makes people jump through are impossible and that is dangerous because the average person is unaware of this.

the whole thing is really absurd. Although i am sure he does some good.

So, while skeptics are Sad Pessimests, you are a... Hasty Generalist or perhaps an Unsubstantiated Claimer?

I think I perfer Red Herring Debater.

After all folks, we were discussing Chemical_Penguin testing himself on his ability to RV... we weren't discussing:

1) Randi or the $1 million challenge

2) Acupuncture and it's validity

3) Negativity or skepticism

Wait, here's the icing...

olaf said:
it is a waste of time for me to talk about design when i don't even know if RV works or much about it.
 
Just to tidy up a loose end:

The quote mentioned earlier, where Randi says his money is safe becuase he always has an out is inaccurate. He said, on his radio show, that the full quote should be: "I always have an out: I'm right."

More a show of bravado than an admission of duplicity.
 
Ed said:
Ummm... Olaf, do you believe in witchcraft? If not, why not.
No but my reaction to someone claiming witchcraft powers would be different than the people here.

The people here (most) would instantly laugh and have their mind already made up. Whereas I would not laugh and I would try hard to keep an open mind and listen to the person to see if there was even something small that they were hitting on that might be true.

That is the difference between me and the negative skeptics. I am much more unbiased and therefore willing to learn.

You people were the flat earthers and i was the person who would have said, "hmmm, maybe".
 
olaf said:
The whole thing is absurd. No matter who does the research anywhere in the world it will be shredded by the flimsiest arguments-- as done by "shapes in the clouds."

Even if they have to resort to "you cheated" or "you just wanted funding" then that is what they will say.

it is a waste of time for me to talk about design when i don't even know if RV works or much about it.

All I know is that almost everything unexplainable gets dismissed here my a fair number of people on this forum.

Are the people here just a gathering of malcontents who happen to have science backgrounds? I sometimes think that if you had 30 points shaved off your IQ you might be sitting around a bar ripping on ethnic groups or something.

Once again, the negative bashers are the antithesis of science. It is okay to question these issues the problem is that you already have your mind made up -- flat earthers.
We seek to design an experiment to corroborate or refute RV claims, and we are, therefore, "malcontents?" It is a "waste of [your] time" to design an RV experiemnt because you "don't even know if RV works?"

And then the punch line: "the negative bashers are the antithesis of science!"

:dl:
 
olaf said:
No but my reaction to someone claiming witchcraft powers would be different than the people here.

The people here (most) would instantly laugh and have their mind already made up. Whereas I would not laugh and I would try hard to keep an open mind and listen to the person to see if there was even something small that they were hitting on that might be true.

That is the difference between me and the negative skeptics. I am much more unbiased and therefore willing to learn.

You people were the flat earthers and i was the person who would have said, "hmmm, maybe".

OK. I contend that it is real. I can't do it myself, but I have evidence that pacts with Satan, familiars, shape shifting, telekinesis, the power of charms, flying are all supported by eye witness testimony and admissions under oath. Further, the history of such activity is long and well documented.

What more will it take to convince you?
 

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