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Has consciousness been fully explained?

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So now you've extended your, as yet unjustifiable, claim from "consciousness is computation" to "life is computation".

Life still appears to be the beginning of 'computation' rather than the end.

If you had read any of my posts, you would know that I am obviously not using the same definition of "computation" that you are. I made it very clear by providing a definition.

If you are incapable of understanding the simple definition I provided then sorry, but we can't really make any headway.
 
Now I'm confused. If we agree that consciousness depends on computation, and computation doesn't depend on life, why does that imply or require that life depends on computation?

It doesn't -- you are reading the wrong statements.

Those were not the premises Aku was dealing with.

The only premises were:

1) The only observed consciousness comes from living things, despite the fact that there are also a great number of non-living things.

The only conclusion you can reach form that premise alone is:

1c) Properties similar to those that are displayed by life (in greater magnitude than non-life) are probably requisite for consciousness.

Life depending on computation is just an implication of the definition of computation I use. That doesn't factor into the above argument, it is separate.
 
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Originally Posted by dlorde:
...What makes consciousness require 'self-organizing energy controlling properties' ?
Because the deliberate behaviors of conscious entities are themselves examples of such a processes.
So, paraphrasing, you think consciousness requires metabolism because the conscious entities you know of have metabolisms? OK.

Life is not the sum of an organism's material components and functions but the process that organizes and utilizes such for some purpose(s).
What makes you think life has some purpose(s)?

As of now, our machines are nothing but the sum of their assembled components & functions and they have no purpose beyond those defined by the living conscious entities who made them. They are projections and extensions of our consciousness and lack any life or direction of their own.
So our machines can't be conscious without life or direction of their own.
Is 'a direction of their own' synonymous with 'purpose'? If so, how would that be manifest - goal-seeking behaviour?

The difference between living organisms that support consciousness and non-living machines isn't a matter of expiration date, but of process; the latter cannot achieve the capabilities of the former without itself being alive/conscious.
A non-living machine can't be alive without being alive, & can't be conscious without being conscious? Who'd a thunk it?

No, I'm saying that material culture is a product of consciousness. Its an extension of the biological self-making capacities [i.e. autopioesis] into the external environment. Such capabilities are a hallmark of life and consciousness itself.
So does consciousness necessarily produce material culture? e.g. Is this a way to tell if some entity is conscious?

Because such systems exhibit properties that necessarily distinguish the behaviors of conscious systems from non-conscious: they do not run down the thermodynamic path of least resistance, by default. As soon as they lose this property they cease being conscious and cease being alive soon thereafter.
The same would apply to a hypothetical conscious machine - it would be conscious until it failed in such a way that it could no longer function sufficiently to support consciousness (e.g. it ran out of backup circuits and alternate configurations).

Erm, I'm pretty sure thats what I've been painstakingly arguing for the passed several pages now. What conversation have you been following? :confused:
I've been following what you've posted. That's the problem - you may be pretty sure what you're arguing, but your posts are vague and/or opaque. That's why I keep having to ask what you mean.

So far, it sounds like you think that consciousness requires life because it requires metabolism, and it also requires purpose, because life has purpose. Your reason for consciousness requiring metabolism/purpose/life seems to be because conscious living things have metabolism/purpose/life.

Is that about right? If not, please explain where it is incorrect (succinctly if possible).
 
No doubt that these are useful suggestions, but they have nothing to do with the scientific method itself.

What you are suggesting is improving the accuracy of some of the steps.

No this is still not true.

The problem is selective reporting during the observation step of the scientific method.

In the first suggestion, having access to more data does not change the statistics. The original research mentioned in the article were all statistically accurate. It exposes the data selection process and experimental set-up which is were the bias comes in.

In the second suggestion, the idea is to reduce the selective reporting by statistically enforcing a minimal sample size or effect size before the experiment is planned. This is still very much part of fixing the scientific method as the author of the suggestion points out.

In answer to the question posed by the title of Lehrer's article, my answer is Yes, there is something wrong with the scientific method, if this method is defined as running experiments and doing data analysis in a patternless way and then reporting, as true, results that pass a statistical significance threshold.

And corrections for multiple comparisons will not solve the problem: such adjustments merely shift the threshold without resolving the problem of overestimation of small effects.

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2010/12/the_truth_wears.html

However this suggestion will still will not account for situations were data measurements are rounded up or down depending on expectations.

This is a tough problem to solve.
 
It's a claim that AFAIAA has only surfaced right here. Now, I could be wrong, and it's likely that someone has made the life=computation claim somewhere, sometime - but it's certainly not mainstream biology.
Yes, it's not a 'traditional' description, but maybe change is in the air. Wikipedia describes computation as "a general term for any type of process, algorithm or measurement" which is more general than most dictionary definitions, and could conceivably be stretched to include the 'process' of life. WordIQ gives "finding a solution to a problem from given inputs by means of an algorithm." which seems to have some leeway for interesting definitions of 'algorithm' ;)
 
If you had read any of my posts, you would know that I am obviously not using the same definition of "computation" that you are. I made it very clear by providing a definition.

If you are incapable of understanding the simple definition I provided then sorry, but we can't really make any headway.
The problem is that if your provided definition is not in agreement with "The act or process of computing; calculation; reckoning." it's wrong.

Note that actors are needed for computation to occur.

BTW, I tend towards the belief that Reality is nothing but computations; anything that can be said to exist is an actor, be it strings, bosons/quarks, spacetime or whatever you'd care to name it.
 
Yes, it's not a 'traditional' description, but maybe change is in the air. Wikipedia describes computation as "a general term for any type of process, algorithm or measurement" which is more general than most dictionary definitions, and could conceivably be stretched to include the 'process' of life. WordIQ gives "finding a solution to a problem from given inputs by means of an algorithm." which seems to have some leeway for interesting definitions of 'algorithm' ;)

I have been very clear, over and over, that my position isn't "life == computation."

This is my position: Life, and lifeforms, are systems that exhibit serial computations that, by affecting the behavior of the system, tend to increase the chances of the system exhibiting the same or similar serial computations in the future, which will then increase the chances again, and again, and again, etc.

In fact, you can remove "computation" from that claim and it is effectively the same, since "computation" is just another term for a certain kind of behavior. So then you have:

Life, and lifeforms, are systems that exhibit behaviors that tend to increase the chances of the system exhibiting the same or similar behaviors in the future, which will then increase the chances again, and again, and again, etc.

Now of course the latter version includes many other things, such as an asteroid sitting in space, but it is clear that life exhibits far more such behaviors than anything else in the known universe. That is what the former version does -- it culls out a whole bunch of irrelevant behavior by including the term "computation." And at any rate the number of those behaviors increases as you go from organelle to cell to organism to population to life as whole. Not surprisingly, so does the ability of the system to exist into the future, all else being equal. Organelles life span is shorter than cells is shorter than organisms is shorter than populations is shorter than life as a whole.

Does all that make sense?
 
It doesn't -- you are reading the wrong statements.

Those were not the premises Aku was dealing with.
OIC! My mistake - although I had a nagging feeling that Aku logic might be involved... :rolleyes:

1c) Properties similar to those that are displayed by life (in greater magnitude than non-life) are probably requisite for consciousness.
Well, no - it doesn't follow, and it isn't useful - 'may be requisite' assumes less than 'probably requisite' but either drains it of utility. You might as well say "my electronic digital computer can compute the trajectory of missiles, therefore computing the trajectory of missiles things probably/may need some properties of electronic digital computers", so what properties of electronic digital computers does a mechanical or hydraulic analogue missile trajectory computer use?

Even if we assume all living things are necessarily conscious, it doesn't follow that being consciousness probably/may require(s) any properties of living things - other than the property of having consciousness itself (and the implicit abstract property of supporting consciousness).

Life depending on computation is just an implication of the definition of computation I use. That doesn't factor into the above argument, it is separate.
OK - I notice it's debated elsewhere.
 
Sounds reasonable to me. Life strives to perpetuate itself, because life that doesn't quickly stops being life and instead becomes food.
 
Life, and lifeforms, are systems that exhibit behaviors that tend to increase the chances of the system exhibiting the same or similar behaviors in the future, which will then increase the chances again, and again, and again, etc.
...
Does all that make sense?
It makes sense, although I'm not sure what behaviours you have in mind.

Won't behaviours that tend to increase the chances of the same or similar behaviours in future tend to eventually stabilise to a fixed set of consistent behaviours, so reducing flexibility and adaptability rather than increasing it?
 
Won't behaviours that tend to increase the chances of the same or similar behaviours in future tend to eventually stabilise to a fixed set of consistent behaviours, so reducing flexibility and adaptability rather than increasing it?

It depends on the environment. If the environment and lifestyle are constant, you only need a fixed set of routines to survive. Many animals live that way, and they only need a small brain.

If early humanoids ended up in an environment that was rapidly changing (perhaps because they were traveling long distances), then it would be beneficial to have the possibility of dynamically coming up with novel solutions. For instance, if you travel to a colder climate, evolution takes many generations to grow thick fur.. With a big brain, you can figure out how to kill an animal and wear its fur, and be warm the same day.
 
It makes sense, although I'm not sure what behaviours you have in mind.

Won't behaviours that tend to increase the chances of the same or similar behaviours in future tend to eventually stabilise to a fixed set of consistent behaviours, so reducing flexibility and adaptability rather than increasing it?

Some do.

Those of an asteroid do. That is why although asteroids last a long time, we don't think of them as being alive.

Other behaviors -- namely, the meta-behavior of changing one behavior due to some other behavior in a repeatable way, which is the physical instance of the abstraction we call a computation -- don't. Because those behaviors are basically just switches between other behaviors. Asteroids don't do that. Hardly anything does that. Except life and the systems that make up life (and the stuff life has made ).

To formalize this:

Suppose there are two systems, S1 and S2. Suppose those systems each exhibit two behaviors at once -- call them behaviors A and B. Now suppose that for both systems, behavior A can be either X or Y. Also suppose that for system S1, B = B1, and for S2 B = B2. In other words behavior B is different between system S1 and S2.

Now suppose that in a given set of environmental states, both systems last longer in a form that can exhibit behavior B when A = X or A = Y (depending on the environment state). That is, for environmental states { 1, 2, 3 ... N } the systems last longer in a form that exhibits B if they also exhibit A = X instead of A = Y, and vice versa for states { N +1, .... M } where M is the total number of possible environmental states.

Finally, suppose that in S1, behavior A is independent of behavior B1 but in S2 A is dependent on B2. What can happen?

Well, clearly S1 has a 50% chance ( assuming N = 0.5 M ) to be in a state that maximizes the chances it will exhibit B1 at some point in the future. B1 might get lucky, and S1 is in the right state, then it might get lucky again, etc. That is like an asteroid sitting in space doing nothing -- if a comet is going to collide with it, and the asteroid is either moving out of the way or not moving out of the way, any other behavior in the asteroid is at the whim of the movement status. If the comet hits it, all the other behaviors that require the asteroid to remain intact will cease to be exhibited thereafter. The asteroid -- still the same "system" -- is now in the form of a million smaller mineral pieces floating in a cloud in space.

What about S2?

Well, if the dependency is such that B2 causes S2 to exhibit A = X or A = Y at the wrong time, then S2 will have a 0% chance to be in a state that maximizes the chances it will exhibit B2 at some point in the future. In other words, behavior B2 is trying to commit behavioral suicide.

But if dependency is the opposite, B2 increases its chances of being exhibited in the future. If B2 causes S2 to exhibit A = X when A = X maximizes the chances of B2 being exhibited in the future, it has bootstrapped itself.

And that, my friend, is how life works == billions of behaviors like B2 that lead to the continued existence of the system that can exhibit them again in the future, by computing what the state of the system that will maximize the chances of future existence should be.

Behaviors like B2 are examples of computations -- the system changes behavior in some additional way because of them. Not all computations lead to a higher chance of computation in the future -- in fact computations occur all over the place, all the time, and don't lead to anything. But when computations do increase their chances of being repeated, special things happen.

Like life. I don't care what anyone says -- life is special, very special, because it is by far the system in the universe that exhibits the most such behaviors. Heck, that's what life is.
 
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Self-referential information processing is not just a collection of words. It's a well-defined mechanism.

Heat transduction is also a well-defined mechanism but you don't see my claiming that its conscious.

That's the critical difference between my definition and yours.

And what is my definition, PixyMisa? :rolleyes:
 
Originally Posted by dlorde:
...What makes consciousness require 'self-organizing energy controlling properties' ?
Because the deliberate behaviors of conscious entities are themselves examples of such a processes.
So, paraphrasing, you think consciousness requires metabolism because the conscious entities you know of have metabolisms? OK.

Not quite. I'm saying that metabolic behavior may be indicative of some rudimentary conscious activity and that its not a coincidence that all consciousness supporting systems we know of are metabolic.

Life is not the sum of an organism's material components and functions but the process that organizes and utilizes such for some purpose(s).
What makes you think life has some purpose(s)?

Its not so much that life has some purpose(s). I'm saying that life is inherently purposeful. Its a subtle difference that makes all the difference.

As of now, our machines are nothing but the sum of their assembled components & functions and they have no purpose beyond those defined by the living conscious entities who made them. They are projections and extensions of our consciousness and lack any life or direction of their own.
So our machines can't be conscious without life or direction of their own.
Is 'a direction of their own' synonymous with 'purpose'? If so, how would that be manifest - goal-seeking behaviour?

I think we covered this before -- but yea, pretty much.

The difference between living organisms that support consciousness and non-living machines isn't a matter of expiration date, but of process; the latter cannot achieve the capabilities of the former without itself being alive/conscious.
A non-living machine can't be alive without being alive, & can't be conscious without being conscious? Who'd a thunk it?

Okay, pop quiz. What are the capabilities that AkuManiMani argued are unique to life and consciousness? Don't worry, its an open notes exam :rolleyes:

No, I'm saying that material culture is a product of consciousness. Its an extension of the biological self-making capacities [i.e. autopioesis] into the external environment. Such capabilities are a hallmark of life and consciousness itself.
So does consciousness necessarily produce material culture? e.g. Is this a way to tell if some entity is conscious?

Consciousness does not necessarily produce material culture, but all marterial culture is a product of consciousness.

Because such systems exhibit properties that necessarily distinguish the behaviors of conscious systems from non-conscious: they do not run down the thermodynamic path of least resistance, by default. As soon as they lose this property they cease being conscious and cease being alive soon thereafter.
The same would apply to a hypothetical conscious machine - it would be conscious until it failed in such a way that it could no longer function sufficiently to support consciousness (e.g. it ran out of backup circuits and alternate configurations).

I'm saying that living organisms ARE those 'hypothetical' conscious machines. They repair and replace their own material components autonomously, and of their own accord, using energy that they actively seek out and utilize. If a machine turns over it's own components of it's own accord, in a self-sustaining manner I will take it as evidence that its possessed of some degree of consciousness. If we want to make our own we have to learn how nature accomplishes it.

Erm, I'm pretty sure thats what I've been painstakingly arguing for the passed several pages now. What conversation have you been following? :confused:
I've been following what you've posted. That's the problem - you may be pretty sure what you're arguing, but your posts are vague and/or opaque. That's why I keep having to ask what you mean.

So far, it sounds like you think that consciousness requires life because it requires metabolism, and it also requires purpose, because life has purpose. Your reason for consciousness requiring metabolism/purpose/life seems to be because conscious living things have metabolism/purpose/life.

Is that about right? If not, please explain where it is incorrect (succinctly if possible).

I'm not saying that consciousness requires purpose; consciousness is the source of purpose. Outside of the context of conscious entities it does not exist. Metabolism is itself an example of purposeful behavior pushing against thermodynamic equilibrium, which is why I consider it to be a necessary (and possibly sufficient) indicator of consciousness.
 
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Pixy, if concsiousness = SRIP, how are they NOT logically equivalent?

PixyMisa said:
They are. That's what I've been saying all along. That is precisely why your position of necessary-and-sufficient is incorrect.

Pixy, logical equivalence is expressed by "if and only if":

Logical equivalence is a type of relationship between two statements or sentences in propositional logic or Boolean algebra. The relation translates verbally into "if and only if" and is symbolized by a double-lined, double arrow pointing to the left and right ( ). If A and B represent statements, then A B means "A if and only if B."
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci833433,00.html

Compound sentences of the form "P if and only if Q" are true when P and Q are both false or are both true; this compound sentence is false otherwise. It says that P and Q have the same truth values; when "P if and only if Q" is true, it is often said that P and Q are logically equivalent.http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~ramsey/Logic/Iff.html

That is: If p iff q is true, then so are p implies q and q implies p, and conversely if both p implies q and q implies p are true then p iff q is true. The table for p iff q is:

(p iff q)
p q T
p ~q F
~p q F
~p ~q T

This shows that 'iff' can be wholly avoided, though usually it isn't because it is quite handy to have a brief expression for the statement of logical equivalence.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~maartens/philosophy/Dictionary/I/Iff.htm

The logical equivalence of p and q is sometimes expressed as P (Double Lined Double Arrow*) Q.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_equivalence

*Remember that the double lined double arrow stands for "if and only if"

Can you give a source that shows that logical equivalence CANNOT be represented by "if and only if"? I've provided at least four now to prove my point.

I don't see why you're so reluctant to have your claim reduced to logical terms.

ETA: let's try it in terms of modal logic:

Pixy, is there any possible world where consciousness occurs without SRIP occuring (or vice versa)? If not, then consciousness occurs IF AND ONLY IF SRIP occurs.
 
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...
I'm saying that life is inherently purposeful.
...
consciousness is the source of purpose.

So life must be conscious because it is inherently purposeful and consciousness is the source of purpose.

OK; I think that speaks for itself...
 
Now I'm confused. If we agree that consciousness depends on computation, and computation doesn't depend on life, why does that imply or require that life depends on computation?

Any examples of computation that doesn't depend on life?
 
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