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Has consciousness been fully explained?

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Actually, I consider neither of them are conscious in any interesting sense. "Toaster" was meant in a metaphorical sense, because it kept popping up in the discussion.

As for a more realistic example of a machine that is somewhat conscious, I'd nominate something like a flight control computer on board a modern aircraft. It would take a decent amount of neurons to duplicate that behavior.

You seem to think that a neuron is just a simple logic gate. I can assure you that the complexity of it's basic day-to-day biological functioning rivals that of any flight control computer.

What about a single macrophage? How rate its 'consciousness' in comparison to our present day computer systems?
 
You seem to think that a neuron is just a simple logic gate. I can assure you that the complexity of it's basic day-to-day biological functioning rivals that of any flight control computer.

source ?

If a single neuron is so incredibly capable, why would a simple fruit fly need 300,000 of them ?
 
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What sort of recall tasks are you talking about? What sort of training procedure? What sort of hint? And how is "remembering" operationalized? Does it make successful predictions about human memory performance?


"recall" just means converging on a particular state given different initial states, where a state is the set of activation statuses of the nodes. For example if you have a network of 50 nodes, and a recall state has subset A active and B not active, you would hope the network would converge to that state eventually even if you put it in an initial state where all 50 nodes are active.

The training procedure involves finding the state you want to be a recall state and minimizing the "energy" of the network when it is in that state by modifying the edge weights. I am not very well versed in the procedure but it looks like wikipedia gives a decent overview, and apparently it is a common model used all over the place in computing and thermodynamics (the "Ising" model, whatever that is).

By "hint" I meant putting the network in an initial state that is closer to the correct recall state in the state space than it is to other "incorrect" recall states. Conceptually, the recall states are all local minima -- so a "hint" is just making the initial state somewhere within the range of states that converge to the correct local minima.

I am not sure what you mean by "operationalized" but I assume you mean "how would it be hooked up to something to make it actually work?" That is tricky and I don't have all the answers, since I think most research has been done regarding ANNs where the edge weights of the network are changed by whoever is directing the algorithm (which might be a computer, but nonetheless it still isn't the network itself).

My intuition tells me that since we know synapses are plastic with regard to their strength, and whether they are excitatory or inhibitory, there must be a mechanism that somehow reinforces synapse "weight" when some state is strong enough to be a "memory." In other words, some biological mechanism that mimics what happens when a Hopfield ANN is trained. Since as I said the model involved in training ANNs is very common in thermodynamics, I don't think it is that implausible that something analagous might be going on in the brain.

As for setting the network in a state, and/or reading the state, well we already can do that with ANNs. It just requires clever network topology. For example I could wire up some perceptrons to filter an image, direct the output of the perceptron to a hopfield net, wait for the hopfield net to converge with a clever ANN that somehow measures the activity of the hopfield net, and then read the hopfield net to another network and do whatever I want with the information -- all using neural networks. I could even have the input network be the same as the output one, and use inhibitory edges to keep the output from "reading" until the hopfield net had settled.

Now, regarding human predictions -- I dunno. I don't think we know quite enough about the hyppocampus (or hypothalamus, whatever it is) to figure out the number of neurons available, and we certainly don't know how "close" to a hopfield net arrangement they are, if at all.

I also don't know if it is possible to perform the kind of experiments you referenced and have the results be meaningful in this context -- because we don't know if human memory is a single network, or a recurrent network or subnetworks, or a parallel set of networks, etc. My opinion is that trying to come up with a simple model and check the math by performing psychological experiments where the subject is tested on recall isn't going to be very illuminating because it necessarily glosses over a huge amount of complexity -- in other words, it is like modelling the space shuttle using the simple rocket exhaust momentum equation we learn about in first year physics.

But there are predictions that don't involve "math" per se. For example, we know that it is very difficult to recall anything to do with "time" using a hopfield net. To do it would require a whole bunch of extra networks and it would be pretty crazy. And do humans do well with time periods? No, not at all -- humans recall events, and the order of events. The duration of the events is not part of our recall. For example a human will find it difficult to say whether a given time period was 15 minutes or 25 minutes, only that the latter period was longer than the first, and even then the circumstances might lead to the human being wrong.

Other examples are what I suggested at in the initial hopfield net post -- memories being just out of reach, memories being polluted by very similar memories, etc.

Like I said I would really love to tinker with these things in some kind of a game framework and start building ANNs that control virtual creatures. It would be a great test.
 

A simple read thru a cellular biology text would suffice. Or, better yet, observe the behavior of single celled organisms under a microscope.

If a single neuron is so incredibly capable, why would a simple fruit fly need 300,000 of them ?

"If a single [human] is so incredibly capable, why would a simple [community] need 300,000 of them ?"
 
A simple read thru a cellular biology text would suffice. Or, better yet, observe the behavior of single celled organisms under a microscope.

I know cells are complex, but most of that complexity has little to do with consciousness. Like you said earlier, a skin cell has similar same complexity as a neuron, but I hope you're not arguing a skin cell is conscious.

"If a single [human] is so incredibly capable, why would a simple [community] need 300,000 of them ?"

I see you're still infatuated with poor analogies. I was comparing a fruit fly brain to an flight control system, because the functions are somewhat similar. There must be a reason a fruit fly needs 300,000 neurons instead of 30. It obviously needs that many to survive.

I'm confused what this has to do with communities. I've yet to see a community on a controlled flight.
 
We solve that the same way we solve any other science/engineering problem: we start with the obvious ones, and see if it works. If it doesn't, then we look closely at the differences, and with enough research we can see how to incorporate the less obvious ones.

A neuron is a complex cell, but it's still finite.

The problem is that we don't yet have a way of measuring consciousness, so we don't know what "works". If consciousness isn't a problem of interest, then it's possible to reproduce other functionality.
 
The problem is that we don't yet have a way of measuring consciousness, so we don't know what "works". If consciousness isn't a problem of interest, then it's possible to reproduce other functionality.

The only objective way we (will ever) have is to look at the behavior. The rest is subjective, and out of our reach.
 
Akumanimani, I have read biology book on neuron functionning, or even general cell, and frankly, while it is awfully complex in all the chemical reaction going on, its emergent functionality is not as complex as you want to say. If it comes to the nitty gritty, I would say that a computer with its operating system software as an appliance is more complex as a neuron. But a single neuron is still complex enough that to simulate a network of them very quickly run into exponential computer complexity. Much of the additional complexity of the chemical reaction in a neuron (or cell) comes from energy production, protein/neurotransmitter production and release, and reparation system. Those don't exists in computer because we throw component out when broken, we have a simplified communication model using fully electrical impulse, and we produce energy off site. Remove all that additional baggage and concentrate on emergent functionality, and a single neuron is not that complex. Neither is a skin cell.
 
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Akumanimani, I have read biology book on neuron functioning, or even general cell, and frankly, while it is awfully complex in all the chemical reaction going on, its emergent functionality is not as complex as you want to say. If it comes to the nitty gritty, I would say that a computer with its operating system software as an appliance is more complex as a neuron. But a single neuron is still complex enough that to simulate a network of them very quickly run into exponential computer complexity. Much of the additional complexity of the chemical reaction in a neuron (or cell) comes from energy production, protein/neurotransmitter production and release, and reparation system. Those don't exists in computer because we throw component out when broken, we have a simplified communication model using fully electrical impulse, and we produce energy off site. Remove all that additional baggage and concentrate on emergent functionality, and a single neuron is not that complex. Neither is a skin cell.

My point is that the biological functioning of neurons is an integral part of their ability to generate consciousness and, subsequently, conscious behavior. I also pointed out earlier that the thermodynamic properties of living organisms seem to be a base requirement of supporting conscious activity. Since we do not understand the biophysics of how these cells accomplish this it’s both presumptuous and premature to make determinations as to what "emergent functionalities" are necessary. Attempts at creating artificial conscious systems that ignore these issues are doomed to failure.
 
My point is that the biological functioning of neurons is an integral part of their ability to generate consciousness and, subsequently, conscious behavior. I also pointed out earlier that the thermodynamic properties of living organisms seem to be a base requirement of supporting conscious activity. Since we do not understand the biophysics of how these cells accomplish this it’s both presumptuous and premature to make determinations as to what "emergent functionalities" are necessary. Attempts at creating artificial conscious systems that ignore these issues are doomed to failure.

How do you get to these conclusions ? Is it just a matter of looking around, and noticing that every conscious person is alive, and is made out of similar looking parts, and then declaring this is the Only Way It Can Happen ?
 
Since we do not understand the biophysics of how these cells accomplish this

Who is this "we" you speak of?

Certainly I am not included in that bunch, since I understand very much about cellular biophysics.

Certainly many others are neither.

Do you mean "the bunch of people who haven't bothered to educate themselves in the relevant areas of human knowledge, and like to proclaim what other people do not know?"

I think that is what you mean ...
 
What I'm saying is that what makes subjective experience subjective is that reflective activity. There's certainly more to the experience part.


Could you extrapolate on "reflective activity?" When I read Hofstader's book, I sort of got what he was talking about, i.e., the notion that complexity can arrise from smaller constituents (like his analogy of fractals) and this complexity has textures of meaning that are not apparent in the building block components.

I understand the creation of the sense of "I", and its utility as a mechanism to order information and meaning.

But the part I keep missing is the jump that doesn't seem to trouble you; that this emergent "I" is the same thing as the "inner light" of subjective experience. In the fractal example, while the fractal patterns are intrinsic to the equations, to make them visible, you need sort of filter that is interpreting the equations and displaying results via some mechanism. Same thing with audio loops, you actually need the sound generation to acheive the loop. Or with video loops, you still need a screen. Where is the equivalent "theater" of conscious experience?
 
Does he really claim this? I think he is saying that the philosophical concept of qualia is confusing and worthless.

Remember, the quale is a philosophical concept. It is not a scientific thing. It's possible that the philosopher's formulation of qualia (the hard problem) is simply broken. Justin Sytsma thinks so.

~~ Paul

This is a perennial in this topic - the suggestion that the problem of qualia/consciousness arises because we are thinking about it in the wrong way, and that if we consider it correctly, the problem vanishes. However, there seems to be some vagueness about the "wrong way" that we are currently thinking about things, and the "right way" which will resolve things.

I don't think that there is a precise formulation of qualia, scientific or philosophical.
 
The only objective way we (will ever) have is to look at the behavior. The rest is subjective, and out of our reach.

That's the problem in a nutshell. The only reason that we are even considering "consciousness" is because we have subjective experiences. Otherwise the concept is meaningless.
 
My point is that the biological functioning of neurons is an integral part of their ability to generate consciousness and, subsequently, conscious behavior. I also pointed out earlier that the thermodynamic properties of living organisms seem to be a base requirement of supporting conscious activity. Since we do not understand the biophysics of how these cells accomplish this it’s both presumptuous and premature to make determinations as to what "emergent functionalities" are necessary. Attempts at creating artificial conscious systems that ignore these issues are doomed to failure.

How do you get to these conclusions ? Is it just a matter of looking around, and noticing that every conscious person is alive, and is made out of similar looking parts, and then declaring this is the Only Way It Can Happen ?

Organisms aren't merely their parts -- they are the process which is organizing those material components. A cell is not a static object but a stream of matter and energy flowing into and out of a fluctuating pattern of activity. Multicellular organisms, like us, are made up of communities of such cells which also undergoes continual turnover – even the genetic material is not exempt from the metabolic process.

Its out of such activity, and only out of such activity that we have any examples of consciousness and conscious behavior. It would behoove us to first understand how such systems accomplish this before attempting to recreate it artificially.
 
Its out of such activity, and only out of such activity that we have any examples of consciousness and conscious behavior

From examples, you only get examples, not rules, especially not if all your examples are pretty much the same.

It would behoove us to first understand how such systems accomplish this before attempting to recreate it artificially.

Attempting to recreate it artificially is a good way to test our ideas. That's what we do. The Wright Brothers could have spent the rest of their lives studying birds. Instead, they decided to try it out.
 
From examples, you only get examples, not rules, especially not if all your examples are pretty much the same.



Attempting to recreate it artificially is a good way to test our ideas. That's what we do. The Wright Brothers could have spent the rest of their lives studying birds. Instead, they decided to try it out.

After studying birds.

What, did you think they just threw a bunch of parts together?
 
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