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Has consciousness been fully explained?

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Non sequitur noted.

If you want to argue that thought experiments are useless, we can pronounce the death of philosophy right now.

If you think you actually responded to my post with what you wrote, then I can't help you because you obviously don't understand any of this.

If you would like to try again, then I invite you to join the conversation.

I have no problem with thought experiments.
I just think that we need to regain perspective every now and then by reminding ourselves that humans are capable of getting a bit lost in their thoughts.
 
I have no problem with thought experiments.
I just think that we need to regain perspective every now and then by reminding ourselves that humans are capable of getting a bit lost in their thoughts.


Of course we can. But since that is not the case here, I assume you must have some other point.

Do you not understand the thought experiment of the simulation? Do you not understand how Pixy is using it as a reductio ad absurdum, because you are basically telling me that is the case?
 
If we can move beyond the bare assertions and get back to arguments, I asked a question earlier to which I did not receive a reply; so I will ask it again.

Suppose we create a computer program that simulates a string of DNA. And suppose we then barrage that simulated DNA with simulations of how radiation works, and we have a simulated soup of available nucleotides. We then put further constraints into the system in which only some of the resulting strings of DNA can survive based on their function.

Would we say that the simulated DNA evolved or that the simulated DNA simulated evolution? Why?
 
Of course we can. But since that is not the case here, I assume you must have some other point.

Do you not understand the thought experiment of the simulation? Do you not understand how Pixy is using it as a reductio ad absurdum, because you are basically telling me that is the case?

I think it is the case.

Yes I understand it and I also understand that the Turing test is not a thought experiment.
 
If we can move beyond the bare assertions and get back to arguments, I asked a question earlier to which I did not receive a reply; so I will ask it again.

Suppose we create a computer program that simulates a string of DNA. And suppose we then barrage that simulated DNA with simulations of how radiation works, and we have a simulated soup of available nucleotides. We then put further constraints into the system in which only some of the resulting strings of DNA can survive based on their function.

Would we say that the simulated DNA evolved or that the simulated DNA simulated evolution? Why?
If your talking evolution as in, The Theory of Evolution, then the first problem is that DNA does not evolve, an organism does.
 
I think it is the case.

Yes I understand it and I also understand that the Turing test is not a thought experiment.


If you think it is the case then you should be able to formulate an argument to oppose it instead of making bare assertions.

I look forward to your argument.

Who said the Turing test is a thought experiment?
 
If your talking evolution as in, The Theory of Evolution, then the first problem is that DNA does not evolve, an organism does.


Fine, make it an organism is you can't with it in terms of DNA. Does the simulated organism evolve or does the simulated organism simulate evolution? Why? And what is the difference?

But no, I'm not talking about the Theory of Evolution in all its details. The details are not important in this situation. This concerns the way we use words.

You should be able to deal with the issue at hand and not focus so thoroughly on the details.
 
Water in a simulation is real water in the simulation. It isn't the same as water 'out here'. Life in a simulation is real life. It just isn't the same as life 'out here'. The reason for this is because there are different rules for what we call matter here and what counts as matter 'there'. There are not different rules for actions because actions are always changes based on interactions of things. Folks in the simulation could (would) devise computers that simulate water -- make something look like water on a screen by lighting up the right pixels at the right time -- and then they would eventually create their own simulation like the one we are discussing where those actions are not just 'descriptions' but the simulation follows the same rules as 'reality'.

The 'stuff' in the simulation follows the rules of the simulation; which for our purposes are the same rules as 'here'. If you were part of the simulation you would say that what you see as alive is alive because it meets all the requirements and definitions of life. And you'd be right because that is what we mean when we use the word 'life'.

From our perspective here and now we can't tell if what we see is an action in the mind of God or energy or a computer simulation or whatever. We only describe the rules of interaction and say that something is alive if it meets the definition we set for life. We might be part of a computer simulation ourselves; the same thinking would apply.

It is only someone outside the frame who would say 'but that's not alive'. Fine if you want to say that, but you miss the entire point of the simulation as a reductio or a thought experiment. Imagine a being outside of our 'reality' saying -- silly humans thinking they are alive, ha, they're just a simulation. The worst you could say about someone within the simulation is that they just don't understand the nature of reality -- that their reality is actually just electrons whizzing around and not the world they see. But the same is just as easily true of us; we have no actual ground on which to tell someone within a simulation that their world is not 'real' unless we want to have the unmitigated temerity to suggest that we know Ultimate Reality.

Just as water is wet within the simulation, thinking is thinking within the simulation. If we could interact with the simulation we would see that their consciousness is the same as ours. 'Wet' depends on the rules of matter that obtain 'here', so wet doesn't translate between the two 'worlds' very easily. It could if we had technology beyond our capabilities -- so that each molecule in the simulation controlled something here so that it had the same characteristics and performed the same movements. Mental actions of all types should translate easily, though, since mental actions 'here' depend on movements of electrical charge in a way that is relatively close to the way electrons move around in a computer; so hooking up a means of interaction would simply seem more intuitive to us.

How is this not dualism?
 
How is this not dualism?

How is it dualism? I think you don't understand what we are talking about if you ask that question, so I will try again.

Water in the simulation acts by the same sort of rules in the simulation that water in the real world acts by in the real world.

So, water in the simulation is real within the simulation to anyone in the simulation. Water gets everything wet in the simulation, because it follows the same rules in the simulation that 'real water' does in the 'real world'.
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
How is this not dualism?

How is it dualism? I think you don't understand what we are talking about if you ask that question, so I will try again.

Water in the simulation acts by the same sort of rules in the simulation that water in the real world acts by in the real world.

So, water in the simulation is real within the simulation to anyone in the simulation. Water gets everything wet in the simulation, because it follows the same rules in the simulation that 'real water' does in the 'real world'.

You're positing two seperate catgories of real:
"Real within the simulation";
"Real in the real world"

So something can be real and not real at the same time: simulated water is real within the simulation, but not real in the 'real world'.

And you don't think this is dualistic?
 
You're positing two seperate catgories of real:
"Real within the simulation";
"Real in the real world"

So something can be real and not real at the same time: simulated water is real within the simulation, but not real in the 'real world'.

And you don't think this is dualistic?


No. Simulated water is real within the simulation, and real in the 'real world.'

Simulated water is water within the simulation.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
How is it dualism? I think you don't understand what we are talking about if you ask that question, so I will try again.
I have the same question, so I don't think you understand what is being asked.
Water in the simulation acts by the same sort of rules in the simulation that water in the real world acts by in the real world.

So, water in the simulation is real within the simulation to anyone in the simulation. Water gets everything wet in the simulation, because it follows the same rules in the simulation that 'real water' does in the 'real world'.

What the people in the simulation perceive as 'real' is a very limited subset of what we know to be 'real' in our world. Their water is not composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen, although it might be composed of two atoms of simulated hydrogen and one of simulated oxygen. It seems to me exactly the same situation that is termed 'dualism' but with one twist. We would be on the 'god' side rather than the 'creature trying to figure out what reality is' side. Oranges in their world are not real are only simulations to us. If we were to communicate with them, wouldn't our world represent a true 'dual' reality to them?
 
I have the same question, so I don't think you understand what is being asked.


What the people in the simulation perceive as 'real' is a very limited subset of what we know to be 'real' in our world. Their water is not composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen, although it might be composed of two atoms of simulated hydrogen and one of simulated oxygen. It seems to me exactly the same situation that is termed 'dualism' but with one twist. We would be on the 'god' side rather than the 'creature trying to figure out what reality is' side. Oranges in their world are not real are only simulations to us. If we were to communicate with them, wouldn't our world represent a true 'dual' reality to them?


Their water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen. In their world what they define as hydrogen acts in their world exactly as hydrogen does in ours. What the heck is hydrogen anyway? Can you give me a definition down the level of ultimate reality?

We can be in the god position and say -- hey that's not really hydrogen -- and we can complain that they do not understand the nature of reality. But we may be in the same situation.

In that world, what they see as hydrogen is hydrogen. It is real hydrogen to them. Simulated hydrogen would be someone creating a program to show a stick and ball figure that we could call hydrogen. But that is not what we are discussing here.

There are not two different meanings of 'real' at play.

There is no dualism in this. If you guys are seeing dualism, then you have misunderstood the whole point. How can I help because I think we are all lost in equivocation fallacies and misunderstandings here.
 
If you think it is the case then you should be able to formulate an argument to oppose it instead of making bare assertions.

When did I make any bare assertions?


Who said the Turing test is a thought experiment?

This is what is implied by those that make the bare assertion that a human cannot tell the difference between a simulation and reality.
 
... There is no dualism in this. If you guys are seeing dualism, then you have misunderstood the whole point. How can I help because I think we are all lost in equivocation fallacies and misunderstandings here.


One might say it's monistic, but you have changed the basic stuff (from the pov of the simulating world: from physical "strings", assuming they are basic, to cyber-strings, which are data packets programmed to behave exactly the same).

Part of the argument is there is no dualism because there is no undefined interaction between two different, basic stuffs.

The resistance to the simulation argument seems to be there needs to be an underlying physics -- that of the computer switch sequences which are the uninterpreted data packets (plus the rules for interpretation, which are... interesting, ontologically; hard to categorize, especially from the pov of the simulated world: metaphysical? irrelevant?) -- beneath the simulated world which isn't necessarily there in the simulating world. Physical changes in the simulating world are logically interpreted (in the simulating world) as a simulation: as physical changes in the simulated world.

So there is a one-to-one correspondence between logical changes in the interpreted switch sequences and 'physical' changes in the basic stuff in the simulated world.

The question is: is that one-to-one correspondence sufficient for a "real" world, as we experience reality? If not, why not?

It's a headscratcher, alright (or a simulation of one).
 
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Fine, make it an organism is you can't with it in terms of DNA. Does the simulated organism evolve or does the simulated organism simulate evolution? Why? And what is the difference?

But no, I'm not talking about the Theory of Evolution in all its details. The details are not important in this situation. This concerns the way we use words.

You should be able to deal with the issue at hand and not focus so thoroughly on the details.

Using the definition of evolve as explicit in Theory of Evolution.

There is no physical evidence that a simulated organism can evolve nor that a simulated organism simulates evolution. The Theory of Evolution is based on and developed using physical evidence not mathematics. Darwin was not a mathematician.

So apart from being different arrangements of words there is no difference between the two ideas as they are both nonsense.
 
When did I make any bare assertions?


!Kaggen said:
And there are 354.65 angels dancing on the point of a pin...

!Kaggen said:
I just think that we need to regain perspective every now and then by reminding ourselves that humans are capable of getting a bit lost in their thoughts.

!Kaggen said:
I think it is the case.


Not an argument in sight. All are bare assertions.


This is what is implied by those that make the bare assertion that a human cannot tell the difference between a simulation and reality.

I can see that you do not understand what he said, then. What he said, if you read him in the context as it was meant, is that if you were in the simulation that would be your reality. What occurs in the simulation, because of the way the simulation is set up -- the rules of the game -- is real to anyone that is in the simulation (to any 'simulated people'). What they see is their real world.

Do you guys really not understand any of this? Is this the real problem -- that you just don't understand the argument at all?

You keep demonstrating to me that you haven't the foggiest notion what is being discussed while proclaiming that you understand it all.

Can you explain the argument to me so that I have some sense that you even know what is being discussed?

We could start easily by one of you simply answering the question about the evolution of the simulated DNA (or organism) and not playing word games with it.
 
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