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Has consciousness been fully explained?

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Computer science isn't normally directly referenced, but everything that happens in computer science can be characterised by precise well-defined physical interactions. Insofar as computation can be well-defined the actions of molecules within digital circuits are well-understood physical processes.


That's not to say that computer science is itself a physical process. It's a combination of several processes.


The reason that gravity does not appear in computer science textbooks is that science is a hierarchy. Physics deals with the most basic issues. Chemistry deals with a specialised subset of physics dealing with the interaction of different elements, mostly taking place in a narrow temperature range. Computer science is the study of algorithmic systems. Everything in chemistry or computer science has to be compatible with physical law. There is nothing that happens in a chemical reaction or in a solid state electrical device that cannot be reduced to some kind of physical interaction, and until a process can be explained in terms of physical law, it cannot be said to have been understood fully


If "computation" were a process as well understood and defined as "computer science", it might be possible to conjecture what the properties of such a process might be.

Glad we got that cleared up.


Often figuring out where the problem with an argument lies involves dissecting what terms actually mean. "Computer science" is always a problematic area. The design and building of computers is not science, it's engineering. Engineering always rests on science, but it is not science. The art of making the computers do what we want is also engineering. The study of how computers can be made to do what we want - popularly known as computer programming - is mathematics.

The difference between physics and engineering is that physicists look for mathematical patterns in the universe. Engineers devise such patterns and apply them to devices.
 
Often figuring out where the problem with an argument lies involves dissecting what terms actually mean. "Computer science" is always a problematic area. The design and building of computers is not science, it's engineering. Engineering always rests on science, but it is not science. The art of making the computers do what we want is also engineering. The study of how computers can be made to do what we want - popularly known as computer programming - is mathematics.

The difference between physics and engineering is that physicists look for mathematical patterns in the universe. Engineers devise such patterns and apply them to devices.

So a scientist who studies the mechanisms of how cells control themselves in terms of algorithms, or who studies creature population dynamics using algorithmic models, or who determines genetic inheritance patterns using algorithmic models, is not a scientist but an engineer.

Got it.
 
I've never denied the existence of a process called "computation". I've just pointed out that it's an operational, engineering term, with no precise physical meaning. A case could be made that "metabolism", while more precisely defined than "computation", has also no very precise physical meaning.

And nobody would say that metabolism occurs in a rock, even though it "has also no very precise physical meaning," by your very own words.

Yet you claim that because computation has no precise physical meaning, one has to say that it either occurs everywhere or only in the human mind.

Why don't you claim the same for metabolism?

Again -- double standards are the hallmark of the religious mind.
 
So a scientist who studies the mechanisms of how cells control themselves in terms of algorithms, or who studies creature population dynamics using algorithmic models, or who determines genetic inheritance patterns using algorithmic models, is not a scientist but an engineer.

Got it.

I just said the exact opposite. But carry on.
 
It is alive in the simulation. Who is ignoring the life/non-life divide? Suggesting that there is a set divide between life and non-life is a huge part of the problem. There is no set demarcation between life and non-life since it is all complex biochemistry. We have general definitions of life -- and cells within the simulation meet every criterion within the simulation.

No one suggests that they are alive outside the simulation.

And this has nothing to do with my response to Westprog. The differences between the way protein regulation occurs and a planet moves about the sun is actually critical to the discussion. It is in the constraints on a system that information is defined. Light as we perceive it is meaningless without the receptors we use; and those receptors define the important aspects of what we call light.

ETA:

Unless you can tell me with a straight face that you and you alone have figured out the nature of Ultimate Reality and can now share this with the rest of us. Everything that we describe, investigate, etc. is done so on the basis of relationships among 'whatever is really out there'. This includes life. The set of relationships we describe for it we call biochemistry. We act as though it all depends on particles that have an indepdendent existence. None of us know that such a thing is true. We could be describing thoughts in the mind of God, or some other 'thing'; but all of it, all of it is based on relationships amongst some 'stuff'. What possible difference could it make if the 'stuff' were an action in a computer producing a simulation for the folks experiencing it?

That's not really helpful. If simulated water isn't real water, then simulated life isn't real life. You have to argue further before you assert that simulated life = life.
 
That's not really helpful. If simulated water isn't real water, then simulated life isn't real life. You have to argue further before you assert that simulated life = life.

It depends on how you define life. Does it have to be biological the way we are? Are stars alive?
 
It depends on how you define life. Does it have to be biological the way we are?
It needs to follow the list of qualities itemised by Al Bell, or at least some similar list.
Okay. At least one item on the list seems specific to biological life.
Are stars alive?
No.
Lets put up against Mr. Bell's list.
1.Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Based on my rather limited understanding of stars, I think they can qualify as a yes for this attribute.
2.Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
This seems specific to life as we know it on earth. It also would exclude viruses.
3.Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
I think it's arguable that stars have a metabolism.
4.Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
Stars have a lifecycle. I think this is another yes.
5.Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Stars have evolved over the lifetime of the universe. Another yes.
6.Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
I'm not sure about this one. Even inanimate objects can respond to stimuli.
7.Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.
This one is a no for stars. But I'm not certain it is necessary for something to be considered 'alive'.

All in all, I think a reasonable argument can be made that stars are alive.
 
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Our point is no you can't.
Wrong

You are saying that all simulations pass the Turing test because anything physical can be simulated using a Turing machine.

I say circular reasoning.

The Turing Test requires at least one non-simulated human to judge the simulation.
 
Our point is no you can't.

The statement I was responding to (where I asked rocketdodger "what's your point?") was:

"I can distinguish between a cell and a rock."

The point of the above statement is obviously not that I can't distinguish between reality and a simulation, so your interjection is inaccurate.
 
That's not really helpful. If simulated water isn't real water, then simulated life isn't real life. You have to argue further before you assert that simulated life = life.


Water in a simulation is real water in the simulation. It isn't the same as water 'out here'. Life in a simulation is real life. It just isn't the same as life 'out here'. The reason for this is because there are different rules for what we call matter here and what counts as matter 'there'. There are not different rules for actions because actions are always changes based on interactions of things. Folks in the simulation could (would) devise computers that simulate water -- make something look like water on a screen by lighting up the right pixels at the right time -- and then they would eventually create their own simulation like the one we are discussing where those actions are not just 'descriptions' but the simulation follows the same rules as 'reality'.

The 'stuff' in the simulation follows the rules of the simulation; which for our purposes are the same rules as 'here'. If you were part of the simulation you would say that what you see as alive is alive because it meets all the requirements and definitions of life. And you'd be right because that is what we mean when we use the word 'life'.

From our perspective here and now we can't tell if what we see is an action in the mind of God or energy or a computer simulation or whatever. We only describe the rules of interaction and say that something is alive if it meets the definition we set for life. We might be part of a computer simulation ourselves; the same thinking would apply.

It is only someone outside the frame who would say 'but that's not alive'. Fine if you want to say that, but you miss the entire point of the simulation as a reductio or a thought experiment. Imagine a being outside of our 'reality' saying -- silly humans thinking they are alive, ha, they're just a simulation. The worst you could say about someone within the simulation is that they just don't understand the nature of reality -- that their reality is actually just electrons whizzing around and not the world they see. But the same is just as easily true of us; we have no actual ground on which to tell someone within a simulation that their world is not 'real' unless we want to have the unmitigated temerity to suggest that we know Ultimate Reality.

Just as water is wet within the simulation, thinking is thinking within the simulation. If we could interact with the simulation we would see that their consciousness is the same as ours. 'Wet' depends on the rules of matter that obtain 'here', so wet doesn't translate between the two 'worlds' very easily. It could if we had technology beyond our capabilities -- so that each molecule in the simulation controlled something here so that it had the same characteristics and performed the same movements. Mental actions of all types should translate easily, though, since mental actions 'here' depend on movements of electrical charge in a way that is relatively close to the way electrons move around in a computer; so hooking up a means of interaction would simply seem more intuitive to us.
 
Water in a simulation is real water in the simulation. It isn't the same as water 'out here'. Life in a simulation is real life. It just isn't the same as life 'out here'. The reason for this is because there are different rules for what we call matter here and what counts as matter 'there'. There are not different rules for actions because actions are always changes based on interactions of things. Folks in the simulation could (would) devise computers that simulate water -- make something look like water on a screen by lighting up the right pixels at the right time -- and then they would eventually create their own simulation like the one we are discussing where those actions are not just 'descriptions' but the simulation follows the same rules as 'reality'.

The 'stuff' in the simulation follows the rules of the simulation; which for our purposes are the same rules as 'here'. If you were part of the simulation you would say that what you see as alive is alive because it meets all the requirements and definitions of life. And you'd be right because that is what we mean when we use the word 'life'.

From our perspective here and now we can't tell if what we see is an action in the mind of God or energy or a computer simulation or whatever. We only describe the rules of interaction and say that something is alive if it meets the definition we set for life. We might be part of a computer simulation ourselves; the same thinking would apply.

It is only someone outside the frame who would say 'but that's not alive'. Fine if you want to say that, but you miss the entire point of the simulation as a reductio or a thought experiment. Imagine a being outside of our 'reality' saying -- silly humans thinking they are alive, ha, they're just a simulation. The worst you could say about someone within the simulation is that they just don't understand the nature of reality -- that their reality is actually just electrons whizzing around and not the world they see. But the same is just as easily true of us; we have no actual ground on which to tell someone within a simulation that their world is not 'real' unless we want to have the unmitigated temerity to suggest that we know Ultimate Reality.

Just as water is wet within the simulation, thinking is thinking within the simulation. If we could interact with the simulation we would see that their consciousness is the same as ours. 'Wet' depends on the rules of matter that obtain 'here', so wet doesn't translate between the two 'worlds' very easily. It could if we had technology beyond our capabilities -- so that each molecule in the simulation controlled something here so that it had the same characteristics and performed the same movements. Mental actions of all types should translate easily, though, since mental actions 'here' depend on movements of electrical charge in a way that is relatively close to the way electrons move around in a computer; so hooking up a means of interaction would simply seem more intuitive to us.

And there are 354.65 angels dancing on the point of a pin...
 
The statement I was responding to (where I asked rocketdodger "what's your point?") was:

"I can distinguish between a cell and a rock."

The point of the above statement is obviously not that I can't distinguish between reality and a simulation, so your interjection is inaccurate.
No, that's exactly my point. You can't distinguish between reality and a simulation.
 
We get it. You believe in magic. Sorry, if you are not prepared to approach the facts honestly and rationally, we can't help you.
We get it too. You just believe you and the annoited few understand magic.
 
And there are 354.65 angels dancing on the point of a pin...

Non sequitur noted.

If you want to argue that thought experiments are useless, we can pronounce the death of philosophy right now.

If you think you actually responded to my post with what you wrote, then I can't help you because you obviously don't understand any of this.

If you would like to try again, then I invite you to join the conversation.
 
We get it. You believe in magic. Sorry, if you are not prepared to approach the facts honestly and rationally, we can't help you.

My apologies, I was just getting dizzy from the abstractions of abstractions of abstractions.
 
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