Happy Birthday Satan!

Madalch said:
"...that's the cutest little thing I've ever seen!"
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Who told you about that? They said they were laughing because they just thought of a joke!
It's not that small! OK, sure I gotta see which hair the water comes out of before I can find it. But.....that's normal right?

I'm normal damn it!

Stop looking at me! Stop looking at me! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHH!
 
I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

They just can't seem to get their brains around that one.

A co-dependant type of person cannot imagine how someone else can exist completely independantly.
 
Xephyr said:
I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.
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oh boy are you single, or just in the wrong thread
:D
 
I have a friend who doesn't believe in god but who sacrifices rabbits and then makes gloves and pants from the hides which he sells on e-bay, but then again maybe he's not a real satanist because he didn't want to go see Saw 3D yesterday.
 
Brattus said:
... to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
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I think you're on the right track with this, if you are no spot-on. Although it may be worth-while to point out similar personalities in other mythoi -- Shiva (the Hindu Destructor of Worlds) and Loki (the Norse Mischief-Maker) spring first to mind. To be fair, they do not play the exact same roles in their respective mythoi as does Satan in Christianity.

Even the Moslem Shai-Tan may have been derived from Christianity, or early Christian writers may have derived Satan from the Moslem precursor religions of the area.

Yes, I think you are on the right track.
 
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Brattus said:
OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.
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The same thing happened to me when I disagreed with a friend about America being a Christian country. Goodbye friend. No big loss.
 
Fnord said:
I think you're on the right track with this, if you are no spot-on. Although it may be worth-while to point out similar personalities in other mythoi -- Shiva (the Hindu Destructor of Worlds) and Loki (the Norse Mischief-Maker) spring first to mind. To be fair, they do not play the exact same roles in their respective mythoi as does Satan in Christianity.

Even the Moslem Shai-Tan may have been derived from Christianity, or early Christian writers may have derived Satan from the Moslem precursor religions of the area.

Yes, I think you are on the right track.
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http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/~articles/t/tiamat.html
Some think Tiamat is a prototype of Satan. In this instance one might speculate that those thinking this might be over influenced by a Christian background. This comment emerges because of another ending of this myth: This is a paradoxical creation myth, even though the chaos-monster was slain and dismembered she remained the body of the universe and was manifest through her children, the gods and goddesses from whom Bel-Marduk received homage. Within this ending there occurs a transformation of evil to good; Tiamat is not entirely stripped of her good attributes, but rather they come out in her children. Perhaps this is why by some Marduk is considered a lord of magic.

In an evolutionary view of Tiamat those who favor the archetypal Satanic view of this primordial deity may be more correct. Initially her furor began with the murder of Apsu and grew fueled by the desire for revenge. Since she was a creator sea-dragon her surviving attributes would be inherited by her children and their children. Even though the deities paid homage to Marduk after he defeated her in their cosmic battle, the future generations might not give him and his successors such homage. The survival instinct of their paternal grandmother resides within them. Coupled with this is the belief that the blood of her second Kingu was used in creating humanity. Therefore her survival characteristics also survive in humanity and will naturally keep reappearing. This has been seen in Lilith and her children including Kali and Hecate. Such children through succubi and incubi copulated with mankind, generating those of 'true' free will and self-determination and self-control; those dancing to their own music, rebels.
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When you add to this the claim of Tiamats appearence as a great red dragon and also that the Jews didn't come up with the concept of Satan until after the Babylonian diaspora I don't think anything else is in the frame

Tiamat was an adversary to heaven, the way you say that in Mesopotamian is SA.AN
;)
 
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Marduk said:
http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/~articles/t/tiamat.html

When you add to this the claim of Tiamats appearence as a great red dragon and also that the Jews didn't come up with the concept of Satan until after the Babylonian diaspora I don't think anything else is in the frame

Tiamat was an adversary to heaven, the way you say that in Mesopotamian is SA.AN
;)
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Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html
 
Illiadus said:
Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html
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Originally that may be true, but then the Hebrews experienced Babylonian civilisation and the character of Satan changed when they saw how useful having a powerful adversary in their theology could be

you only need to read the book of Job to see how much, Satan is certainly a being in that book and that book appears in the Hebrew bible
;)
 
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Marduk said:
Originally that may be true, but then the Hebrews experienced Babylonian civilisation and the character of Satan changed when they saw how useful having a powerful adversary in their theology could be

you only need to read the book of Job to see how much, Satan is certainly a being in that book and that book appears in the Hebrew bible
;)
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Not being Babylonian, I don't know how they perceived their deities and mythological creatures, but being Jewish I can tell you that there is no tradition of regarding Satan as a personal entity, and tradition is all there is when it comes to Judaism. The Torah is all about values.

It's the Christians who see devils and demons, angels and spirits.
 
Illiadus said:
Not being Babylonian, I don't know how they perceived their deities and mythological creatures, but being Jewish I can tell you that there is no tradition of regarding Satan as a personal entity, and tradition is all there is when it comes to Judaism. The Torah is all about values.
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http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S
they apparently don't agree with you
and neither does the link you posted earlier
Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham.
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:confused:
as I stated correctly earlier, he may not have started off as a personal entity, but he certainly became one
do you understand what the addition of "ha" to "satan" signifies ?
Illiadus said:
It's the Christians who see devils and demons, angels and spirits.
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what ?
Angels were added to Jewish theology during the babylonian diaspora
Devils and demons were believed in before the diaspora and spirits have always been a tenet of Jewish faith
Rabbinical demonology has three classes of demons, though they are scarcely separable one from another. There were the shedim, the mazziḳim ("harmers"), and the ruḥin ("spirits"). Besides these there were lilin ("night spirits"), ṭelane ("shade", or "evening spirits"), ṭiharire ("midday spirits"), and ẓafrire ("morning spirits"), as well as the "demons that bring famine" and "such as cause storm and earthquake" (Targ. Yer. to Deuteronomy xxxii. 24 and Numbers vi. 24; Targ. to Cant. iii. 8, iv. 6; Eccl. ii. 5; Ps. xci. 5, 6.)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon#Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dybbuk
 
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Illiadus said:
Do you?
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evasion noted
would you like to withdraw all your earlier claims now in light of the insurmountable conflicting evidence?
:confused:

Illiadus said:
I've only posted one link. Don't make up links and say I'm confused, my friend.
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ok lets go over this slowly shall we
heres what you posted earlier including the one link I referenced, where did I say you supported any of the claims youve come out with, with more than one mans opinion (Ariel Scheib)
Illiadus said:
Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html
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please read it, it contradicts itself as you are now doing
Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins
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So satan isn't a being in Judaism, yet he can have conversations with God
You are confusing the Talmud and Midrash concepts with those of the Torah
:p
when was the last time you read the book of Job ?
want me to provide a link ?
:D
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm
now make sure you read it, there might be a test later

or would you like to move on to your knowledge of Tiamat when earlier you said
Illiadus said:
Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
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This implies you have some deep understanding of Babylonian mythology
:degrin:
 
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Illiadus said:
Oops. I thought that was my link. I'm sorry, let me just read this one and I'll get back to you.
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Just to be clear, we are discussing prototypes for satan, and his evolution which may not neccesarily be reflected in whatever modern distinction of Judaism youre from
;)
 
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Marduk, would you agree that the article in the Jewish encyclopedia shows that the old testament contains conflicting depictions of Satan regarding his ability to act independently of God, his place in physical reality, et c? If not, could you please sum up in 25 words or less the homogenic image you have of him, for reference.

If you agree that the OT is in conflict with itself regarding the character of Satan, don't you think my assertion that he is seen as the symbol of evil by most jewish readers, or is that just in my family?

If these questions are actually beside the point, could you just state the core of your argument so that I don't leave as ignorant as I came, because leaving I am.
 
Marduk said:
Just to be clear, we are discussing prototypes for satan, and his evolution which may not neccesarily be reflected in whatever modern distinction of Judaism youre from
;)
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Okay, you answered my question so ignore the post below yours, please.
 
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