HAMAS wins big.

[zenith-nadir]

Well the Palestinian election is over and HAMAS wins big.

Jan. 26, 2006 11:34

Palestinian Premier, Cabinet Resigns

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia and his Cabinet ministers submitted their resignations Thursday as the Islamic militant group Hamas appeared to have captured a large majority of seats in the Palestinian elections — a shocking upset sure to throw Mideast peacemaking into turmoil.

So who does Fatah - who's been in power since 1994 - blame for the loss?

Jan. 26, 2006 11:34 - (continued)

A senior Fatah member, Saeb Erekat, said he could not confirm the unofficial results, but blamed Israel's refusal to resume peace talks with a Fatah-led government for the party's poor showing.

Israel is responsible for Fatah's loss in the election...go figure ....at least according to the useful idiot Saeb Erekat.

So where does that leave the peace process?

Jan. 26, 2006 11:34 - (continued)

Olmert said Wednesday that Israel cannot trust a Palestinian leadership in which the Islamic group has a role, according to a statement by his office.

President Bush told The Wall Street Journal in an interview Wednesday that the United States will not deal with Hamas until it renounces its position calling for the destruction of Israel.

But Haniyeh said the group had no intention of laying down its arms after the elections. Another candidate, Mahmoud Zahar, said his group is "not going to change a single word" in its covenant calling for Israel's destruction.

So much for peace, Fatah blames Israel for the loss and not their corruption, refusal to fight terrorism, incompetance and cronyism over the past decade. By law America cannot deal with government who is a designated terror organization, Israel cannot trust a Palestinian leadership made up of a designated terror organization and Hamas is not going to lay down their arms or "change a single word" in its covenant calling for Israel's destruction.

This is terrible news and I fear for the future.

equals

 

[Mycroft]

Yeah, it really bites that Hamas did so well. I've a friend from the region who believes it's more a vote against the corruption that's ruled Palestinian politics for the past few decades than it is a vote for the kind of genocidal radicalism Hamas represents. I hope he's right, but either way it illustrates that a huge portion of the problem is that the Palestinians don't have a reasonable option to vote for.

 

[Perforatu]

Fatah blames Israel for the loss and not their corruption, refusal to fight terrorism, incompetance and cronyism over the past decade.

Hmmm... I wouldn't attribute their loss to those factors. Rather the opposite; I get the impression they lost because unlike Hamas, they didn't support violence against Israel enough in the eyes of most voters.

But I agree, this sucks big time.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Mostly, i've been against israel, but i think they have started doing some good stuff lately.. so this is bad.


That doesn't mean i supported hamas before.. but it was easier to understand their position for me, it isn't now.. I always thought it was appaling though. don't get me wrong.

This is bad.

 

[richardm]

I've a friend from the region who believes it's more a vote against the corruption that's ruled Palestinian politics for the past few decades than it is a vote for the kind of genocidal radicalism Hamas represents. I hope he's right, but either way it illustrates that a huge portion of the problem is that the Palestinians don't have a reasonable option to vote for.

What were their options? It seems to have been represented here as a straight contest between Hamas and Fateh, from what I've seen.

I suppose we can but hope that now they have real power they might choose to edge away from forcing their agenda with bombs. I know it doesn't seem likely, but we can but hope.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The dilemma is Hamas is a designated terror organization, recognized as such by the E.U., U.S., Canada and Israel. This is no different than if the people of Afghanistan voted in Al Queda to lead them.

What do the Palestinians think is going to become of this? IMHO this will only alienate the Palestinian Authority even further on the world stage. Aid will dry up as by law no one can send aid to a government comprised of a designated terror organization. Diplomatically this is a disaster.

 

[Perforatu]

I suppose we can but hope that now they have real power they might choose to edge away from forcing their agenda with bombs. I know it doesn't seem likely, but we can but hope.

Don't hold your breath.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060125/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestinianvotehamas

 

[zenith-nadir]

Don't hold your breath.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060125/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestinianvotehamas

Exactly my point. People around the world have this delusion and refuse to accept that Hamas is a fundamentalist terror organization and not a democratic political party. They are not even the IRA. They are not about to absolve themselves of their call for jihad and the destruction of Israel just because they won big. Winning big only gives them moral support for their 'cause" - jihad and the destruction of Israel.

 

[richardm]

Don't hold your breath.

Well, quite. But on the other hand, that was before the poll result was known. Posturing before the event is one thing, but attitudes might change now. Or they might not, of course. Sinn Fein have never condemned an IRA bombing as far as I know, but they did still manage the transition to acceptability.

 

[richardm]

Exactly my point. People around the world have this delusion and refuse to accept that Hamas is a fundamentalist terror organization and not a democratic political party. They are not even the IRA. They are not about to absolve themselves of their call for jihad and the destruction of Israel just because they won big. Winning big only gives them moral support for their 'cause" - jihad and the destruction of Israel.

I don't think that anyone thinks that they're not a fundamentalist terror organization, but if they decide to try the democratic route to get what they want I think we should at least wait to see what they actually do next. After all there's not much else we can do at this point.

Since we're trying to instil democracy in the Middle East I also worry a bit about the mixed message we might now appear to be sending: "You can vote for anyone you like so long as we approve of them"

 

[zenith-nadir]

I don't think that anyone thinks that they're not a fundamentalist terror organization, but if they decide to try the democratic route to get what they want I think we should at least wait to see what they actually do next. After all there's not much else we can do at this point.

True, it's a sit and wait. But if Hamas - who's sworn to Israel's destruction - decides to make peace with Israel then that would be against their entire history and philosophy. Therefore said moderates in Hamas would become enemies of the thousands of hard-core fundamentalists in Hamas - specificaly the hard-core islamic fundamentalist members who willingly strap suicide vests on and walk into Israeli discos and restaurants.

Since we're trying to instil democracy in the Middle East I also worry a bit about the mixed message we might now appear to be sending: "You can vote for anyone you like so long as we approve of them"

I have no problem with a democratic vote, Fatah was so bad that the Palestinian people had no choice but to elect a designated terror organization as the only alternative. I just don't think they understand the international ramifications of that vote.

I shall repost this incase anyone has any delusions as to who Hamas are:

Hamas camp: Sun, fun ... indoctrination - Sunday, July 31, 2005

At one beach camp, attended by approximately 100 kids, an instructor wore a heavy flannel shirt under which a webbed belt could be seen strapped to his stomach. Asked by a reporter what it was, he answered, with a broad smile, "Boom!"

The instructor led a group of young teenagers through marching drills on the sand -- facing movements, close quarter drill. With a smile at the reporter, he put a megaphone to his lips.

"What are you?" he called.

"Monsters!" the kids replied.

"What are you?!"

"MONSTERS!"

As the instructor, Sa'eb Dormush, stepped aside for an interview, a youth in the group shouted out "moqawama!" -- resistance.

"That is the first word they learn when they are born," Dormush said with a laugh. "This is the next generation."

Across camp, a group of younger children -- most between 10 and 12 -- sat in a circle in the sand singing one of the "intifada songs" they learn at camp. One boy sang verses in a rolling soprano as the others joined in on the one-word chorus.

"We don't want to sleep.

HA-A-MAS!

We want revenge.

HA-A-MAS!

Raise it up.

HA-A-MAS!

Rifle fire.

HA-A-MAS!

If it will take a thousand martyrs.

HA-A-MAS!

Kill Zionists.

HA-A-MAS!

Wherever they are.

HA-A-MAS!

In the name of God.

HA-A-MAS!"

Such activities prompt Israeli officials to look harshly at the camps, especially when combined with statements from Hamas officials such as Gaza leader Mahmoud al-Zahar, who said in a recent interview that despite the current shaky hudna (truce) with Israel, Hamas will continue to attack Jewish settlements in the West Bank until Israel disengages from that area. He also said that he remains devoted to the elimination of the state of Israel altogether.

From CNN:

Thursday, January 26, 2006; Posted: 5:14 a.m. EST (10:14 GMT)

Naila Ayesh and her husband, Jamal, said they are worried about the message Hamas is sending to Palestinians. Naila said Hamas told women if they didn't vote for the militant group that "at the end, God will punish you."

The couple voted for Third Way, a secular, pro-reform party. Jamal said the days when Fatah called the shots are over.

"Monopoly of the political system is finished," he said.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Skeptic]

Allright, all together now:

1). israel must negotiate with Hamas because its political participation means "it has moderated".

2). The fact that most Palestinians voted for a group whose official agenda is to kill every jew in israel means absolutely nothing about what the Palestinians think about israel. It's a vote that's all about "corruption" or whatever (and we all know how corruption-free and upright Islamic movements are...)

3). Hamas' rise is israel's fault, when you look at the "root causes" of its existence (that is, when you look at all the "root causes" except their genocidal racist hatered of jews.)

4). israel must support the "moderate leaders" in Hamas (i.e., those willing to rearm a bit more before restating the next round in the genocidal terrorist war against israel)

5). If the Palestinians do want the jews dead, this is just because of "the occupation" or "lack of opportunity" or whatever.

Etc., etc., etc.

Please add your own. I'm sure there is a list as long as my arm as how this shows absolutely nothing about Palestinian support of genocidal terror, and if it does, it's really all israel's fault they support genocidal terror in the first place.

Remember: use the words "root cause" and "occupation" a lot.

 

[zenith-nadir]

14:16 26/01/2006

Italian prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Thursday the victory of the Islamic militant group Hamas in Palestinian legislative elections was a "very, very, very bad result," news reports said.

"Hamas must stop the terror, they must put down the arms, they must accept a negotiated solution before the rest of the world can include them in the peace process," (Denmark's foreign minister), Moeller said.

Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds said the EU will not be able to cooperate with Hamas unless it changes its policies.

"Hamas has to understand that with democracy goes renunciation of violence," Straw said on a visit to Turkey.

The Quartet, which also includes the European Union and Russia, is on record against allowing Palestinian Authority cabinet status for anyone who has not renounced violence or recognized Israel's right to exist. Hamas has done neither.

"We don't deal with Hamas. And under the current circumstances, I don't see that changing," McCormack said Wednesday.

...and so it begins....the international ramifications of the Palestinian vote. I just wonder how Hamas will "pay the bills" as the new Palestinian government when the international aid stops flowing.

 

[geni]

Well the Palestinian election is over and HAMAS wins big.

So who does Fatah - who's been in power since 1994 - blame for the loss?

Israel is responsible for Fatah's loss in the election...go figure ....at least according to the useful idiot Saeb Erekat.

Well technicaly if Israel had made a big show of giving up land due to negotation Fatah might have done better.

So where does that leave the peace process?

Dead.

So much for peace, Fatah blames Israel for the loss and not their corruption, refusal to fight terrorism, incompetance and cronyism over the past decade.

Considering the result I don't think failing to effe3ctively deal with terrorism cost them votes.

By law America cannot deal with government who is a designated terror organization, Israel cannot trust a Palestinian leadership made up of a designated terror organization and Hamas is not going to lay down their arms or "change a single word" in its covenant calling for Israel's destruction.

I think Israel will find hammas very easy to trust. I can't recall them ever lieing about thier intention to wipe out Israel.

Anyway it appears that Israel has got the new generation of leaders it wanted.

 

[David Swidler]

I get the nagging feeling not much is going to change, actually.

Let's say there's international pressure to get Hamas to renounce violence against Israel. With great fanfare, they agree, winning PR points and possibly getting some Israeli concessions in return. Then we're back where we started. Arafat also renounced violence, remember. It didn't stop Fatah its offshoots from attacking Israelis. So what, really, will change?

 

[geni]

Allright, all together now:

1). israel must negotiate with Hamas because its political participation means "it has moderated".

For a given value of negotiate.

2). The fact that most Palestinians voted for a group whose official agenda is to kill every jew in israel means absolutely nothing about what the Palestinians think about israel. It's a vote that's all about "corruption" or whatever (and we all know how corruption-free and upright Islamic movements are...)

Hammas is pretty corruption free.

3). Hamas' rise is israel's fault, when you look at the "root causes" of its existence (that is, when you look at all the "root causes" except their genocidal racist hatered of jews.)

If Israel didn't exist neither would hammas.

5). If the Palestinians do want the jews dead, this is just because of "the occupation" or "lack of opportunity" or whatever.

Probably a bit more historical.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Well technicaly if Israel had made a big show of giving up land due to negotation Fatah might have done better.

Fatah has led the Palestinians for 40 years...they have run the Palestinian Authority since 1994. Saeb Erekat making up excuses why disengagement from Gaza last August is responsible for Fatah's failure is laughable.

Considering the result I don't think failing to effe3ctively deal with terrorism cost them votes.

That and rampant corruption, cronyism, theft, lawlessness, a failure to reform and a total chaos of weapons.

I think Israel will find hammas very easy to trust. I can't recall them ever lieing about thier intention to wipe out Israel.

I agree. The one thing Israel can trust is Hamas's desire to wipe out Israel.

Anyway it appears that Israel has got the new generation of leaders it wanted.

I fear for the future. I do not think the Palestinian voters realize that Hamas will bring them great hardship for in the long run Hamas is not progressive nor democratic, Hamas depends on religious ideologies and not on democracy.

 

[geni]

Fatah has led the Palestinians for 40 years...they have run the Palestinian Authority since 1994. Saeb Erekat making up excuses why disengagement from Gaza last August is responsible for Fatah's failure is laughable.

Most voters don't seem to worry about things 4 years old (which is why politicians will tend to vote themselves pay rises striaght after elections) yet alone 40.

That and rampant corruption, cronyism, theft, lawlessness, a failure to reform and a total chaos of weapons.

I doubt anyone voted for hammas thinking they would control weapons in a way that improved things.

I fear for the future. I do not think the Palestinian voters realize that Hamas will bring them great hardship for in the long run Hamas is not progressive nor democratic, Hamas depends on religious ideologies and not on democracy.

So the focus must shift to makeing sure there are elections in 4 years.

Has Egypt released a statement on the result yet?

 

[Ed]

...and so it begins....the international ramifications of the Palestinian vote. I just wonder how Hamas will "pay the bills" as the new Palestinian government when the international aid stops flowing.

There will always be enough money to allow the head guys to lead the sort of life that they want. In reading these posts, I could only think of Somalia, a pariah state run by warlords.

We have now heard the "tut tutting" by the west. Next will come the backpedaling.

 

[Skeptic]

If Israel didn't exist neither would hammas.

And if Elizabet didn't exist, Johnny couldn't have raped and murdered her. Therefore, the root cause of her rape and murder is her being born.