Hamas & Israel Cease-Fire. Hamas Violates cease-fire.

[gdnp]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3663539,00.html

Guesses on how many will say Israel is the aggressor when it retaliates?

I guess that would depend on how and against whom they retaliate, wouldn't it?

 

[yairhol]

I guess that would depend on how and against whom they retaliate, wouldn't it?

It's not quite that simple.
Israel has always declared that it wants to target the terrorists, never the citizens on purpose. But...since the terrorists hide behind their own citizens, innocent casualties are unfortunately imminent.
This situation will keep on being a reality until the Palestinians realize that the terrorists are no good for them and start fighting them theirselves.

 

[FireGarden]

AFP says that Fatah's armed wing claim the rocket:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHn93xj6pFkHQEzK8E3_bvu1aWCw

The rocket attack was claimed by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of moderate Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas's Fatah faction.

 

[gdnp]

AFP says that Fatah's armed wing claim the rocket:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHn93xj6pFkHQEzK8E3_bvu1aWCw

Well, it would be nice to argue that Hamas as the elected and/or de facto government in Gaza is responsible for the actions of the Gaza citizens, even a rival faction, but given the damage that Israel did to their government infrastructure it is blame them if they have difficulty reigning in rival groups.

Let us see if Israel launches an attack on PLO facilities, now we know where the blame lies...

 

[yairhol]

Well, it would be nice to argue that Hamas as the elected and/or de facto government in Gaza is responsible for the actions of the Gaza citizens, even a rival faction, but given the damage that Israel did to their government infrastructure it is blame them if they have difficulty reigning in rival groups.

Are you saying that prior to the attack on Gaza in December 2008, the Hamas did all they could to stop rockets from flying into Israel? They were in full power in 2008 yet 3000 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel in 2008 before December.

 

[a_unique_person]

Are you saying that prior to the attack on Gaza in December 2008, the Hamas did all they could to stop rockets from flying into Israel? They were in full power in 2008 yet 3000 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel in 2008 before December.

I don't know how much 'full power' exists in Gaza.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1640028,00.html

BBC Correspondent Alan Johnston was released on Wednesday after 114 days in captivity because the Hamas authorities in Gaza made his kidnappers an offer they couldn't refuse: either they freed the Briton or they would be hunted down and killed, a senior Hamas militant told TIME. To Johnston's captors, the Army of Islam, an offshoot of a powerful criminal clan in Gaza known as the Dogmush, there was no doubting Hamas' resolve. In the 48 hours prior to the journalist's release, Hamas gunmen took up positions on rooftops around the Dogmush compound in Gaza City, cut off water and electricity, and arrested several clan members, including a leader of the Army of Islam. The first sign that the kidnappers were cracking under the pressure came on Tuesday with the release of nine pro-Hamas students that the Army of Islam had grabbed earlier.

 

[gdnp]

Are you saying that prior to the attack on Gaza in December 2008, the Hamas did all they could to stop rockets from flying into Israel?

No. That would be silly. They fired many of those rockets.

They were in full power in 2008 yet 3000 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel in 2008 before December.

And yet, this thread is not about those rockets: it is about cease-fire violations. In particular, I was responding to a rocket fired by a Fatah wing, a group that has been battling Hamas recently. I am simply pointing out that Hamas may have trouble reigning in other militant groups even if it wants to given the damage it took during the Israeli incursion.

 

[yairhol]

Hamas have proven that they do not wish to stop other groups from launching rockets into Israel. On the other hand, if any of the other groups tries to gather power on the Palestinian streets, Hamas will be there to make sure it doesn't happen. They do it very easily. They kill the opposition like they did with Fatah supporters.

 

[gdnp]

Hamas have proven that they do not wish to stop other groups from launching rockets into Israel.

I see. So Hamas not stopping rockets begin fired into Israel by other groups when they were firing rockets and when they had not declared a cease-fire implies that Hamas has no intention of stopping the firing of rockets into Israel when they are not firing rockets because of a cease-fire.

I supposed based on this logic Israel has no intention of stopping its attack on Hamas militants, based on their past actions.

On the other hand, if any of the other groups tries to gather power on the Palestinian streets, Hamas will be there to make sure it doesn't happen. They do it very easily. They kill the opposition like they did with Fatah supporters.

Given the known brutality of Hamas and the efficiency you claim, it is surprising they have not yet exterminated all Fatah supporters in Gaza already.

 

[yairhol]

cease-fire violation #6 1.31.09

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060309.html

Palestinians in Gaza launch Grad rocket into Ashkelon

 

[gdnp]

Israeli cease-fire violation

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060309.html

Israeli aircraft on Thursday wounded 10 Palestinians in the attempted killing of a Hamas operative in southern Gaza.

Seems like cease-fire violations on both sides.

 

[yairhol]

Seems like cease-fire violations on both sides.

No, that's called retaliation.

 

[yairhol]

I find it amazing that after Palestinian terroristic organizations break the cease-fire 6 times, I have not heard 1 word of bad critisizm at them while on the other hand when Israel retaliates you say Israel is breaking the cease-fire.
Amazing.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I find it amazing that after Palestinian terroristic organizations break the cease-fire 6 times, I have not heard 1 word of bad critisizm at them while on the other hand when Israel retaliates you say Israel is breaking the cease-fire.
Amazing.

Would you be amazed if I didn't remark on the sky being blue?

 

[yairhol]

Would you be amazed if I didn't remark on the sky being blue?

Unfortunately not everybody thinks this way.

 

[gdnp]

No, that's called retaliation.

I see.

Palestinians fire a rocket
Israel fires back
Palestinians fire another rocket
Israel fires a missile
Palestinians fire back another rocket
Israel attacks with a helicopter
Palestinians fire another rocket
Israel fires a missile from a drone

So by your count, that is 4 Palestinian cease-fire violations, and no Israeli cease-fire violations, just retaliation.

And you wonder why people question your objectivity.

Here's a clue for you: unless Israel is specifically targeting the person or person firing a missile, their attacks on Palestinian targets are as much cease-fire violations as Palestinian rocket attacks.

 

[ddt]

No, that's called retaliation.

That's called newspeak.

I find it amazing that after Palestinian terroristic organizations break the cease-fire 6 times, I have not heard 1 word of bad critisizm at them while on the other hand when Israel retaliates you say Israel is breaking the cease-fire.
Amazing.

I see how concerned you are about Israeli lives, or lives in general. Most of those rocket attacks were not ceasefire violations, as has been pointed out to you. By nevertheless calling them so, you draw the discussion to that, instead of to the fact that rockets are launched in the first place. Keep up the good job.

 

[yairhol]

So by your count, that is 4 Palestinian cease-fire violations, and no Israeli cease-fire violations, just retaliation.

And you wonder why people question your objectivity.

By your counting IT IS retaliation. You just proved my point.

Here's a clue for you: unless Israel is specifically targeting the person or person firing a missile, their attacks on Palestinian targets are as much cease-fire violations as Palestinian rocket attacks.

Nope, not any more. Trying to retaliate against the single person that does the shooting is what led Israel to start with the latest operation in Gaza in the first place.
It doesn't work. This had been proven already.
Israel is now retaliating much more severely than than the attacks. Israel must make it clear that ANY shooting on Israel will be met with a strong retaliation.
Israel in my opinion is still not retaliating strongly enough.

 

[gdnp]

By your counting IT IS retaliation. You just proved my point.

My point is that if you have two people taking turns shooting at each other then both are violating the cease-fire.

Nope, not any more. Trying to retaliate against the single person that does the shooting is what led Israel to start with the latest operation in Gaza in the first place.
It doesn't work. This had been proven already.
Israel is now retaliating much more severely than than the attacks. Israel must make it clear that ANY shooting on Israel will be met with a strong retaliation.
Israel in my opinion is still not retaliating strongly enough.

Well, clearly then you do not favor a cease-fire, then. All Fatah has to do is fire a few rockets, and soon there will be another all-out confrontation.

Let's look a bit more clearly how this works.

Let's say that a Fatah supporter fires a rocket at Israel, which lands in a field somewhere and causes no injuries.

Israel doesn't know who fired the rocket, but decide to retaliate by a "pinpoint" attack on a Hamas target. Even though Hamas did not fire the rocket.

The Israeli attack misses the target but wounds 10 bystanders: maybe Hamas, maybe civilians.

Now let's look at this from the Hamas perspective. They didn't fire the original missile. They didn't violate the cease-fire. Yet Israel tried to kill one of their guys and injured 10 bystanders. A clear violation of the cease-fire. So what would you expect them to do? Why, retaliate, of course. Why should they uphold their part of the deal if Israel isn't upholding theirs?

Soon, you are in an ever-escalating cycle of tit-for-tat strikes.

Whose fault?

Well, it's partially the fault of the Fatah member who fired the first rocket. But his goal may have been to try to provoke another confrontation between Israel and Hamas. It's partially the fault of the Israelis who retaliated against the wrong target. I'm afraid to say that the only people I would have trouble blaming in the above hypothetical scenario for the collapse of the cease-fire would be Hamas.

Israel plays this game time and time again. They allow the radicals to set the agenda and scuttle any progress for peace. They provoke responses from their enemies and then claim to be the victims when they get attacked.

 

[TheRavingSceptic101]

Israel in my opinion is still not retaliating strongly enough.

Wait... you think Israel isn't retaliating "hard enough?" Wow..... Do you honestly think striking Hamas any harder would weaken their resolve (or stop the rocket fire)? I seriously doubt it.