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Guy Heinze jr. - another wrongful conviction

If he was on drugs it is probably not unusual he took advantage of the situation and helped himself to those painkillers. There were no claims that that shotgun in his car was used in the murder. He was possibly still under the influence of drugs when he was questioned (I am not sure of the details on that yet). If he didn't bother to hide the shotgun or the painkillers, why and where did he hide the money they are claiming he took? Where did he hide the shotgun barrel the cops claim was used as the murder weapon?
 
de facto plea deal?

RoseMontague said:
Here is a quote from another of those articles



He went inside the house and before calling the cops removed a shotgun later saying he did that because he knew it was stolen. Blood on his flip flops isn't unusual from walking around a crime scene covered with blood. I guess they are saying he killed them in his flip flops if they are using that against him, 8 people with a blunt instrument and none managed to get away or called for help. I wonder if he put something on over his gym shorts before calling the cops as well. What did he do with the supposedly stolen money and pills (the motive doesn't make much sense to me).

I get the impression his defense lawyer was happy with the outcome. There is something that reeks about this case.
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Rose Montague,

One wonders whether his lawyer may have struck a de facto plea deal. If he thought that Mr. Heinze were guilty, I could see this happening without bad intentions (which is not to say that it would be ethical or legal). On the other hand, something doesn't seem right, even after one accounts for the usual tunnel-vision.
 
RoseMontague said:
Here is a quote from another of those articles

He went inside the house and before calling the cops removed a shotgun later saying he did that because he knew it was stolen. Blood on his flip flops isn't unusual from walking around a crime scene covered with blood. I guess they are saying he killed them in his flip flops if they are using that against him, 8 people with a blunt instrument and none managed to get away or called for help. I wonder if he put something on over his gym shorts before calling the cops as well. What did he do with the supposedly stolen money and pills (the motive doesn't make much sense to me).

I get the impression his defense lawyer was happy with the outcome. There is something that reeks about this case.
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If you watch the documentary, his lawyers seem totally convinced he's going to be acquitted (they film them as the jury is deliberating).

At the time they made the deal, I don't think they knew which way the jury was leaning, so it might be that they didn't realise the juror they were removing was a not guilty holdout.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Billy Wayne Cope is probably innocent.
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All of us here, being the good skeptics that we are, know there is no correlation between middle names and a predilection for serial murder. We also know that the coupling of first name Billy with middle name Wayne means this guy has probably killed more than thirty people and will kill another sixty.
 
Dwayne with the nunchucks in the trailer

Dumb all Over,

"Defense attorney Newell Hamilton Jr. said the manager of the mobile home park where the slayings occurred told lawyers at the courthouse this week that she found a bloody pair of nunchucks — short clubs connected by a chain — in an old tire outside the victims' trailer less than two weeks after the slayings." link
And this:
"Investigator Roderic Nohilly told the jury that on Oct. 1, a supervisor asked him to interview a man named Calvin Hudson. He said Hudson told him one of the slaying victims, 44-year-old Rusty Toler Sr., had been threatened by two men who told him: 'What goes around comes around. We'll kill your whole family.'

"The tipster identified only one of the men by his full name, Andy Anderson, who had an address listed at the same mobile park where the killings occurred. Nohilly said he soon found out that Anderson had been jailed in neighboring Wayne County at the time of the slayings. He said his inquiry stopped there. Police never interviewed Anderson or tried to find the second man, identified by the tipster only as Dwayne."

A guy named Dwayne? He has to be the killer.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Dumb all Over,

"Defense attorney Newell Hamilton Jr. said the manager of the mobile home park where the slayings occurred told lawyers at the courthouse this week that she found a bloody pair of nunchucks — short clubs connected by a chain — in an old tire outside the victims' trailer less than two weeks after the slayings." link
And this:
"Investigator Roderic Nohilly told the jury that on Oct. 1, a supervisor asked him to interview a man named Calvin Hudson. He said Hudson told him one of the slaying victims, 44-year-old Rusty Toler Sr., had been threatened by two men who told him: 'What goes around comes around. We'll kill your whole family.'

"The tipster identified only one of the men by his full name, Andy Anderson, who had an address listed at the same mobile park where the killings occurred. Nohilly said he soon found out that Anderson had been jailed in neighboring Wayne County at the time of the slayings. He said his inquiry stopped there. Police never interviewed Anderson or tried to find the second man, identified by the tipster only as Dwayne."

A guy named Dwayne? He has to be the killer.
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I suppose Rusty ran afoul of some bad characters, a minimum of two guys who blitzed the family. They might have friends on the local police force, or the police might be afraid of them, or the police might have thought "good riddance to all of them," and putting Heinze Jr. away was the cherry on the sundae.
 
In looking for some more information I found a local website with a message board. It appeared to be mostly local people posting. I think the split was about 50/50 as to whether Heinze did it. Link

The people who thought he did do it theorized it followed a night of crack smoking -- which Heinze admitted to -- and that Heinze was in a murderous rage. They said the victims in the trailer had fans set up going full blast and that might have provided enough noise that the various victims were not aware of what was happening in the other rooms. It was also mentioned that in a case in Georgia -- though many years ago -- a man killed nine family members.

Is it possible Heinze did in fact commit these murders? I never say never but the evidence presented, at least as it appears in news accounts, does not seem to pass the reasonable doubt burden. Among the other mistakes Heinze's lawyers made was in probably not seeking a change of venue.
 
newyorkguy said:
In looking for some more information I found a local website with a message board. It appeared to be mostly local people posting. I think the split was about 50/50 as to whether Heinze did it. Link

The people who thought he did do it theorized it followed a night of crack smoking -- which Heinze admitted to -- and that Heinze was in a murderous rage. They said the victims in the trailer had fans set up going full blast and that might have provided enough noise that the various victims were not aware of what was happening in the other rooms. It was also mentioned that in a case in Georgia -- though many years ago -- a man killed nine family members.

Is it possible Heinze did in fact commit these murders? I never say never but the evidence presented, at least as it appears in news accounts, does not seem to pass the reasonable doubt burden. Among the other mistakes Heinze's lawyers made was in probably not seeking a change of venue.
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I appreciate the link, some very interesting information and opinions. Regarding not being able to hear things because of the fans. It looks like a single-wide Mobile Home. I very much doubt that theory.

Most of these have just one door and it would be possible for one to guard the door and one to beat people to death. Not likely but barely possible for two people, in my opinion. I would guess three or more.
 

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newyorkguy said:
In looking for some more information I found a local website with a message board. It appeared to be mostly local people posting. I think the split was about 50/50 as to whether Heinze did it. Link

The people who thought he did do it theorized it followed a night of crack smoking -- which Heinze admitted to -- and that Heinze was in a murderous rage. They said the victims in the trailer had fans set up going full blast and that might have provided enough noise that the various victims were not aware of what was happening in the other rooms. It was also mentioned that in a case in Georgia -- though many years ago -- a man killed nine family members.

Is it possible Heinze did in fact commit these murders? I never say never but the evidence presented, at least as it appears in news accounts, does not seem to pass the reasonable doubt burden. Among the other mistakes Heinze's lawyers made was in probably not seeking a change of venue.
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I was curious as to the case you mentioned when 9 family members were killed. It goes way back to 1887. A man named Thomas Woolfolk murdered 9 members of his family with a short-handled ax. It happened at about 3 a.m. when they were presumably sleeping. The victims included 4 children aged 10, 7, 5, and 18 months and an 84 year old woman. Woolfolk was convicted and hung. No crack involved.
 
weapons

Why didn't someone fire the shotgun(s)? Or even swing it(them) if it were not loaded?
 
RoseMontague said:
I appreciate the link, some very interesting information and opinions. Regarding not being able to hear things because of the fans. It looks like a single-wide Mobile Home. I very much doubt that theory.

Most of these have just one door and it would be possible for one to guard the door and one to beat people to death. Not likely but barely possible for two people, in my opinion. I would guess three or more.
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The more offenders you add, the more crowded the trailer gets. Honestly, the nine people in the current story sounds pretty full to me.

Did the cops have some story about who got attacked first and where they were in the trailer? The only thing I can imagine is all the victims at one end - where they can't escape - and too crowded to fight more than one (or two) at a time. But forensics would show this I'd think.
 
marplots said:
The more offenders you add, the more crowded the trailer gets. Honestly, the nine people in the current story sounds pretty full to me.

Did the cops have some story about who got attacked first and where they were in the trailer? The only thing I can imagine is all the victims at one end - where they can't escape - and too crowded to fight more than one (or two) at a time. But forensics would show this I'd think.
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Another question is why were there no 911 calls? Surely somebody had a cell phone. How does one person keep this many people from calling for help? it's just not making much sense to me. Will keep looking as I have time. Does anybody know if there are any court transcripts online?
 
newyorkguy said:
In looking for some more information I found a local website with a message board. It appeared to be mostly local people posting. I think the split was about 50/50 as to whether Heinze did it. Link

The people who thought he did do it theorized it followed a night of crack smoking -- which Heinze admitted to -- and that Heinze was in a murderous rage. They said the victims in the trailer had fans set up going full blast and that might have provided enough noise that the various victims were not aware of what was happening in the other rooms. It was also mentioned that in a case in Georgia -- though many years ago -- a man killed nine family members.

Is it possible Heinze did in fact commit these murders? I never say never but the evidence presented, at least as it appears in news accounts, does not seem to pass the reasonable doubt burden. Among the other mistakes Heinze's lawyers made was in probably not seeking a change of venue.
Click to expand...

When Heinze was arrested, I did not dismiss the accusation out of hand. I saw it as possible - someone who had the element of surprise, knew the layout of the place, knew who to kill first, and acted with ruthless efficiency. There are indeed precedents. Something like crack or meth is just the catalyst that can produce such a crime. I understand why the cops immediately suspected Heinze.

The catch is that it didn't check out. Heinze was a drug-addled hick. If he had done it, the proof would have been there, in spades. It was not there. But police ran with their initial suspicion anyway, they ignored statements and physical evidence that pointed to a different scenario, they railroaded Heinze, and they allowed the real killers to go free.
 
katy_did said:
I saw this documentary the other day. My first thought was how one person could possibly have killed that number of people without any of them really fighting back or even getting out of bed. Several of them were killed in the same room as each other. Weird case.

I'm puzzled as to why his lawyers don't seem to have appealed - is it because this would put the death penalty back on the table? In hindsight it's obvious they made a mistake by agreeing to have the one juror removed in exchange for taking away the death penalty option. It seemed as if they didn't want a retrial because they were worried the prosecution would then know the whole defence case and be better prepared.

The documentary series is available to watch here - the whole series is excellent (if it's region-locked you may be able to watch it using Hola).
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I can't imagine how anybody could bludgeon eight people to death and not have the victims' blood all over him. A tiny spot of not positively identified blood on his underwear is the only "evidence" against him? No DNA evidence? The cops who "investigated" the crime are not qualified to issue a speeding ticket.
 
RoseMontague said:
I appreciate the link, some very interesting information and opinions. Regarding not being able to hear things because of the fans. It looks like a single-wide Mobile Home. I very much doubt that theory.

Most of these have just one door and it would be possible for one to guard the door and one to beat people to death. Not likely but barely possible for two people, in my opinion. I would guess three or more.
Click to expand...

Most single wide mobile homes I have seen have two doors.
 
CORed said:
I can't imagine how anybody could bludgeon eight people to death and not have the victims' blood all over him. A tiny spot of not positively identified blood on his underwear is the only "evidence" against him? No DNA evidence? The cops who "investigated" the crime are not qualified to issue a speeding ticket.
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Wouldn't that depend on what the weapon was? Did they ever say?
 
CORed said:
Most single wide mobile homes I have seen have two doors.
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Thanks for the correction. Even stranger then that nobody went out the back door and seems to indicate there may have been three or more attackers, two on each door and one doing the beating.
 
RoseMontague said:
. Why did his defense agree to allow the holdout juror (for not guilty) to be replaced? This sounds like a setup.
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That guy needs to get a new lawyer and appeal based on ineffective assistance of counsel. This is so absurd I have to wonder if there is more to the story.
 
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