Gun politics in Minnesota

[Ranb]

The Minnesota legislature is considering bills that would ease restrictions on silencer possession. Previously MN had the most restrictive laws in the USA regarding silencers. The DNR was prohibited from using them for animal control and the police had very strict rules regarding their use. Police had to obtain their silencers from out of state sources as FFL's were not allowed to sell them. A few years ago restrictions were eased allowing FFL's to sell to MN government agencies, the DNR was also allowed to again use them. Police use is still restricted to emergency tactical response which would seem to prohibit their use while training. In my opinion this is a foolish requirement made by people who are ignorant of firearms in general.

Recently two bills were introduced to ease restrictions. They would allow civilian possession of registered silencers and require that the sheriff sign off applications for those allowed to possess them. It would also ease restrictions on the police and allow them to train with suppressed firearms.

The bills;
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.php?f=HF1434&y=2015&ssn=0&b=house
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.php?f=SF1435&y=2015&ssn=0&b=senate

The House bill (HF 1434) had a hearing on March 12th. I was not expecting the outcry from the group Protect Minnesota. The hearings can be seen here; http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/htv/archivesCOMM.asp?comm=89019&ls_year=89

There was industry support for the bills, but too much repetition and not enough support by MN residents who wish to own silencers.

A Protect Minnesota representative named Heather Martens was of the opinion that “Silencers were designed to allow people to commit murders and get away with it.” much like some of the woefully uninformed persons on the ISP forum. http://www.protectmn.org/

I've exchanged messages with members of Protect MN and they are foolish enough to believe the claims made by Alexander Zaitchik in his strange Salon article as well as the Mother Jones' nonsense.

Part of the Protect MN outrage was that if MN eases restrictions silencers would be uncontrolled if (when pigs fly) the feds remove them from NFA control. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/...ors-silencers-should-be-made-easier-to-obtain


Ranb

 

[Ladewig]

I've exchanged messages with members of Protect MN and they are foolish enough to believe the claims made by Alexander Zaitchik in his strange Salon article as well as the Mother Jones' nonsense.

Part of the Protect MN outrage was that if MN eases restrictions silencers would be uncontrolled if (when pigs fly) the feds remove them from NFA control. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/...ors-silencers-should-be-made-easier-to-obtain


Ranb

I didn't know much about Alexander Zaitchik and his writings so I looked him up. To me, not all of his arguments appear sound.

If the current campaign succeeds in delisting silencers from NFA regulation, the gun lobby likely won’t wait long before targeting the remaining regulatory regimes limiting the circulation of fully automatic machine guns and even hand grenades. Do not be surprised when you see a 2014 Gun World feature extolling freshwater blast fishing as a great way to connect kids and nature, while reducing the risks of fishing with sharp steel hooks, some of which have dangerous double jags. If you can’t see the safety rationale here, or the Freedom Logic that undergirds it, then you obviously do not care about America’s children and their millions of young tender fingers.​

 

[Ranb]

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/30/silencers_the_nras_latest_big_lie/

as both shooters unloaded designed-for-damage rounds from high-capacity magazines loaded into assault rifles. Improving their killing efficiency would require one of two things: the ability to shoot more bullets faster, or more time. .... More minutes to hunt, meanwhile, might be gained by employing a noise suppressor....

Not really. Both shooters were indoors using high velocity ammo. Even with a high quality silencer on their rifles the noise would be enough to make your ears rings. A silencer will not disguise the noise enough to keep people from being alarmed or understand that a firearm has been discharged.

By muffling the noise generated with every shot by sonic booms....

A silencer can't muffle a sonic boom created as the bullet moves down range from the barrel. Does he really think people are this stupid? Yes he does, I talked to him on the phone and exchanged e-mails.

The same qualities that make silencers the accessory of choice for targeted assassination....

I wonder how he would explain why so few assassins use them.

Do not be surprised when you see a 2014 Gun World feature extolling freshwater blast fishing as a great way to connect kids and nature, while reducing the risks of fishing with sharp steel hooks, some of which have dangerous double jags.

Maybe his entire article was meant to be a joke. Too bad others are not picking up on the joke.

Ranb

 

[HawksFan]

I just wish Minnesota would recognize the Iowa CWP so I wouldn't have to get the Utah non-resident permit to carry in Minn.

 

[BStrong]

I didn't know much about Alexander Zaitchik and his writings so I looked him up. To me, not all of his arguments appear sound.

If the current campaign succeeds in delisting silencers from NFA regulation, the gun lobby likely won’t wait long before targeting the remaining regulatory regimes limiting the circulation of fully automatic machine guns and even hand grenades. Do not be surprised when you see a 2014 Gun World feature extolling freshwater blast fishing as a great way to connect kids and nature, while reducing the risks of fishing with sharp steel hooks, some of which have dangerous double jags. If you can’t see the safety rationale here, or the Freedom Logic that undergirds it, then you obviously do not care about America’s children and their millions of young tender fingers.​

What? the guy never heard of the Dupont lure?

Great appeal to emotion and fact free opinion piece.

The NFA isn't going away anytime soon.

 

[casebro]

What? the guy never heard of the Dupont lure?

Great appeal to emotion and fact free opinion piece.

The NFA isn't going away anytime soon.

Hmm, what about the effects of the perfection of 3D printing? When everybody can print a gun, will enforcement of the NFA become as moot as Prohibition or pot laws? Or the copyright laws that make Xeroxing illegal?

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have 3D printers"

Didn't NCIS have an all plastic gun? Smuggled through customs for an assassination. Looked like something a kid would carve out of a block of white plastic, when what would be required for a one shot, close range, single use weapon would probably look more like a ball point pen , cell phone, or book. Or sandwich.

Hmm, muzzle loaded, plastic explosive bullet? Or better yet, ceramic instead of plastic? Ceramic makes bullet proof armor, how about bullet proof gun barrels? Or who needs a pressure cooker when you can bake your own bomb casing?

Let me know when I stray too far off topic.

 

[Ranb]

Hmm, what about the effects of the perfection of 3D printing?

I can make a quality silencer in a matter of hours on my cheap hobby lathe right now. People have been doing this for decades. Don't even need a lathe. With a drill/bit and a 1/2-28 tap a person can make an adapter for an oil filter which will very effectively suppress any rifle chambered in 22lr. While I find such hardware to be "beneath my dignity", silencers are absolutely readily available to anyone right now. https://cadizgunworks.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=20_26

When everybody can print a gun, will enforcement of the NFA become as moot as Prohibition or pot laws? Or the copyright laws that make Xeroxing illegal?

Since everyone can make a silencer right now we have to decide if those laws are already moot. As far as I know people use programs like Solid Works to program a CNC machine to make silencer parts which they then just assemble by hand. These designs are frequently proprietary. But nothing stops a person from making their plans available for free on the internet.

Ranb

 

[BStrong]

Hmm, what about the effects of the perfection of 3D printing? When everybody can print a gun, will enforcement of the NFA become as moot as Prohibition or pot laws? Or the copyright laws that make Xeroxing illegal?

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have 3D printers"

Didn't NCIS have an all plastic gun? Smuggled through customs for an assassination. Looked like something a kid would carve out of a block of white plastic, when what would be required for a one shot, close range, single use weapon would probably look more like a ball point pen , cell phone, or book. Or sandwich.

Hmm, muzzle loaded, plastic explosive bullet? Or better yet, ceramic instead of plastic? Ceramic makes bullet proof armor, how about bullet proof gun barrels? Or who needs a pressure cooker when you can bake your own bomb casing?

Let me know when I stray too far off topic.

Unless I miss read the opinion piece, the writer is trying to make a logical jump from allowing the possession of cans under the current federal statutes to legal no-questions asked possession of NFA weapons and devices.

It isn't going to happen.

The printed gun craze has certain parties twisted up in a bunch, but the fact is that folks have been home building firearms (legal and otherwise) for years - I was a bit surprised at how many non-shooters are amazed when a shooter field strips a firearm and can explain the process as a normal course of action - it's akin to the guys I know today that can't change a tire on their car.

I'm interested in 3d printing more as a prototyping tool than a final manufacturing process, and the metal 3d printers show promise, but you can manufacture a firearm receiver with a drillpress and a milling table.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Unless I miss read the opinion piece, the writer is trying to make a logical jump from allowing the possession of cans under the current federal statutes to legal no-questions asked possession of NFA weapons and devices.

It isn't going to happen.

The printed gun craze has certain parties twisted up in a bunch, but the fact is that folks have been home building firearms (legal and otherwise) for years - I was a bit surprised at how many non-shooters are amazed when a shooter field strips a firearm and can explain the process as a normal course of action - it's akin to the guys I know today that can't change a tire on their car.

I'm interested in 3d printing more as a prototyping tool than a final manufacturing process, and the metal 3d printers show promise, but you can manufacture a firearm receiver with a drillpress and a milling table.

In principle it is possible that eventually improvements in manufacturing techniques would mean that it does not require the same mechanical skill. Of course with a build party and the help they give you frequently don't need any mechanical skills anyway.

 

[Ranb]

4 of the 5 pro-gun bills were rolled into one omnibus bill. Looks like the silencer bill did not make it in, yet.

A 3D printed silencer; http://3dprint.com/56493/metal-3d-printed-gun-silencer/
Selective Laser Sintering; http://www.livescience.com/38862-selective-laser-sintering.html

If these machines go for less than $10k some day, I'll probably get one instead of buying a better lathe.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

Looks like the silencer bill is going to get a vote on the House floor.
http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/cco/calendar.asp

 

[Ranb]

HF 1434 passed 89-40, not the landslide I was hoping for, but better than a loss.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

I'm hearing that the silencer bill has been added to the omnibus safety bill HF 849. This will forced those bills to be accepted or rejected as a whole, from what I hear.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

Both omnibus bills are making progress.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.php?b=Senate&f=SF0878&ssn=0&y=2015
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.php?f=HF849&y=2015&ssn=0&b=house
However it is reported that Governor Dayton is threatening to veto any bill which eases restrictions on silencers.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/04/23/dayton-vows-to-veto-bills-legalizing-gun-silencers/

Those bills stood little chance of making it to the governor’s desk as the majority Democrat Senate has shown no interest in taking them up.

But Dayton quieted any possibility of legalized silencers with a veto threat Thursday. He says quieter guns could put police and civilians at greater risk.

I'm betting that if the omnibus Public Safety bill makes it to his desk he will allow it to become law by refusing to sign it.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

The Senate bill passed 39-22. One vote short of a 2/3's majority.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

The Public Safety / Judiciary Conference Committee passed the Omnibus Public Safety Finance & Policy Bill; something that the silencer bill is a very small part of. It now goes to each floor for a vote. The session ends Monday but the MN legislature is working the weekend and there is the possibility of a special session.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

Passed both houses with >2/3 majority. Since it is the end of the session on Monday it is unlikely to be voted on again if the governor vetoes the bill.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

Governor Dayton had previously threatened to veto any silencer bill, but this morning signed SF878, an omnibus safety bill into law.

It has several gun control provisions in addition to easing the strict controls on silencer use by the police and allowing civilian possession. The Governor will no longer have the authority to seize firearms during a state of emergency. CCW holders will no longer need to provide notification to the Commissioner of Public Safety to carry at the MN State Capitol complex. Reciprocity for CCW is changed and MN law will be clarified concerning purchase of long guns in other states.

Ranb

 

[BStrong]

Governor Dayton had previously threatened to veto any silencer bill, but this morning signed SF878, an omnibus safety bill into law.

It has several gun control provisions in addition to easing the strict controls on silencer use by the police and allowing civilian possession. The Governor will no longer have the authority to seize firearms during a state of emergency. CCW holders will no longer need to provide notification to the Commissioner of Public Safety to carry at the MN State Capitol complex. Reciprocity for CCW is changed and MN law will be clarified concerning purchase of long guns in other states.

Ranb

A victory for reason over emotion.

 

[Ranb]

No kidding. I was embarrassed to hear the group, Protect Minnesota, claim that "silencers were designed to allow people to commit murders and get away with it". They need history and manners lessons.

The police will no longer be potential felons for merely training with the suppressed weapons they're issued. A win for everyone.

Ranb