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Gun control poll--please read OP for assumptions.

Gun control opinion poll (see OP for assumptions please)

  • I am liberal and believe citizen-owned firearms should be banned entirely.

    Votes: 4 2.5%
  • I am liberal and believe citizen-owned firearms should be significantly more regulated.

    Votes: 19 12.1%
  • I am liberal and am mostly satisfied with existing citizen-owned firearm laws.

    Votes: 31 19.7%
  • I am liberal and believe citizen-owned firearms should be significantly less regulated.

    Votes: 14 8.9%
  • I am liberal and believe citizen-owned firearms should be entirely unrestricted by law.

    Votes: 3 1.9%
  • I am conservative and believe citizen-owned firearms should be banned entirely.

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • I am conservative and believe citizen-owned firearms should be significantly more regulated.

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • I am conservative and am mostly satisfied with existing citizen-owned firearm laws.

    Votes: 16 10.2%
  • I am conservative and believe citizen-owned firearms should be significantly less regulated.

    Votes: 12 7.6%
  • I am conservative and believe citizen-owned firearms should be entirely unrestricted by law.

    Votes: 8 5.1%
  • On Planet X, we use plasma emitters for self-defense.

    Votes: 22 14.0%
  • I am not a US resident

    Votes: 24 15.3%

  • Total voters
    157
I didn't advocate "loosening" the current federal regulations. You and gumboot are the ones who advocate New York City, or even worse, type regulations for the entire country.

O RLY? Care to point out where I did any such thing? I'm not even an American, why would I give two figs about US gun laws? I'm a New Zealander, and I'm quite happy with our gun laws.


Since both you and gumboot have zero first hand knowledge of firearms, all your arguments are mired in the theoretical world.

O RLY? So I wasn't taught to shoot as a child growing up in a rural area? I've never been hunting? I haven't ever fired the plethora of military weapons found in a typical military armoury? I haven't had a strong interest in military weapons - including firearms - ever since I was a little child?

Thank you for correcting me.

:rolleyes:

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you have no idea what you're even arguing against. If you want to pin up a meaningless strawman to punch around, feel free. Just don't stick my name on it, thank you very much.
 
O RLY? Care to point out where I did any such thing? I'm not even an American, why would I give two figs about US gun laws? I'm a New Zealander, and I'm quite happy with our gun laws.




O RLY? So I wasn't taught to shoot as a child growing up in a rural area? I've never been hunting? I haven't ever fired the plethora of military weapons found in a typical military armoury? I haven't had a strong interest in military weapons - including firearms - ever since I was a little child?

Thank you for correcting me.

:rolleyes:

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you have no idea what you're even arguing against. If you want to pin up a meaningless strawman to punch around, feel free. Just don't stick my name on it, thank you very much.

If you have had such familiarity with firearms why did you make such an ignorant comment about Squeaky Fromme's Colt .45 auto in the Iraqi shoe-thrower thread? Is this supposed knowledge something you once had, but no longer remember?

"This is false. The weapon was a deadly weapon, with ammunition in the magazine. Had she pulled the trigger a couple of times, she would have killed him." gumboot

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4511386#post4511386

I am well aware of your New Zealand citizenship. But since you say you are fine with the firearm laws there, and you say that you couldn't care less about the firearm laws here, then what in Hell have you been opining about for the last 5 pages?
 
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If you have had such familiarity with firearms why did you make such an ignorant comment about Squeaky Fromme's Colt .45 auto in the Iraqi shoe-thrower thread?

Because everyone makes mistakes?


I am well aware of your New Zeallnd citizenship. But since you say you are fine with the firearm laws there, and you say that you couldn't care less about the firearm laws here, then what in Hell have you been opining about for the last 6 pages?

Well let's have a look shall we, because it's pretty clear you haven't been paying attention.

Post 1
I answered the OP by stating I was not an American, and that I was happy with gun laws in my country. I offered a musing that carrying pistols in public didn't seem to have much bearing on a populace's ability to keep weapons for overthrowing a tyranny.

Post 2
Fuelair commented that people who don't think guns are necessary must not know anyone who has been the victim of crime, as apparently being the victim of crime makes you realise you need a gun. I pointed out, with my second post, that guns don't stop those crimes.

Post 3
Texas asked for an example of large numbers of armed civilians starting gunfights, so I offered the example of Iraq, as a joke.

Post 4
I replied to a post of yours with a counter-argument and a joke about the USA becoming a monarchy.

Post 5
I pointed out that most burglaries occur when the occupant is absent, questioning the relevance of using firearms to prevent such crime.

Post 6
This is where our current exchange began. You replied to a post of mine with some nonsensical and irrelevant arguments, and whilst displaying a total lack of understanding of A) my position and B) gun laws in my country. I corrected those errors.

Post 7
You replied to my above post with yet more irrelevant arguments that bore no relationship to my position, and once again I pointed this out.

Post 8
I expressed some opinions on why I feel the "self-defense" argument for having readily accessible hand guns is a non-starter.

Post 9
You responded to the above post with a shallow appeal to emotion, which I pointed out with a counter.

Post 10
In response to myself and another poster you made some more wholly incorrect and fanciful strawman arguments about my position and my experience with the subject matter. I correct these errors.

So. To answer your question, what in Hell have I been opining about for the last 6 pages?

Mostly your phenomenal lack of reading comprehension.

I predict Post 12 of mine will deal with me pointing out that your response to this post is crammed full of faulty arguments, strawmen, and a total failure to comprehend anything being posted.

Now, if you'd care to back up some of your baseless assertions, please provide any evidence, even just a scrap, to support the following comments made by you about me:

"New Zealand is not as zealous about denying its citizens rights to firearms as you seem to be."

"Are you as gung ho on gun control in your own country as you are about it in the U.S.?"

"Perhaps they espoused the same hysterical rhetoric you use and that led to their demise? "

"You and gumboot are the ones who advocate New York City, or even worse, type regulations for the entire country."

You have this fanciful image in your head that I'm anti-guns, or support harsh gun control laws. You're wrong. You're utterly wrong, and nothing I have said in this thread supports your views. You've labeled me as an "opponent" for whatever reason, and you've personalised the discussion as an attack on me, for a position I don't hold.

"I wish there were a way to arrange for a meeting with you and this rape victim that could have prevented the attack had she been allowed access to firearms. You could console her with platitudes about her sacrifice for the greater good."

Pathetic.
 
"You have this fanciful image in your head that I'm anti-guns, or support harsh gun control laws. You're wrong. You're utterly wrong, and nothing I have said in this thread supports your views."gumboot

Wow! I must be laboring under a misapprehension. These comments are identical to the same ones the anti-gun lobby has been making for the last 40 years. Are these comments considered to be the opinions of a gun rights activist in New Zealand? If they are, then something is very wrong in the lamb.

"Except firearms clearly don't prevent people being robbed, mugged, raped and murdered, so I fail to see the relevance." gumboot

"I personally think preventing large numbers of innocent people being injured and killed is far more worthy than maybe preventing one woman from being raped." gumboot

"The simple statistical fact is if you have a loaded accessible firearm in your house, that weapon is far, far more likely to be used to kill or inflict injury on you or a member of your family than it is to protect you." gumboot
 
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Since both you and gumboot have zero first hand knowledge of firearms, all your arguments are mired in the theoretical world.

Why you continue on this tack now that its fallacy has been demonstrated to you is beyond me.

Your first fail is your statement that neither gumboot nor I have first hand knowledge of firearms. This has already been shown to be false, but worse yet it is irrelevant.

I know you are a bit analogy-challenged, but try these on for size:

1) you have never been pregnant, therefore all of your abortion arguments are mired in the theoretical world
2) you have zero first hand knowledge of laboratory science, therefore all of your stem cell argument are mired in the theoretical world
3) You have never served in the military, therefore all of your arguments about the Iraq war are mired in the theoretical world
4) You are not Palestinian and/or Jewish and have never lived in Gaza and/or Israel (take your pick. Mix and match, if desired) and thus all of your arguments about the middle east are mired in the theoretical world
5) You have never dissected a live dog, therefore your arguments against vivisection are mired in the theoretical world.
6) you have never been the victim of a nuclear explosing, therefore all of your arguments about Iran's nuclear ambitions are mired in the theoretical world.
 
Why you continue on this tack now that its fallacy has been demonstrated to you is beyond me.

Your first fail is your statement that neither gumboot nor I have first hand knowledge of firearms. This has already been shown to be false, but worse yet it is irrelevant.

I know you are a bit analogy-challenged, but try these on for size:

1) you have never been pregnant, therefore all of your abortion arguments are mired in the theoretical world
2) you have zero first hand knowledge of laboratory science, therefore all of your stem cell argument are mired in the theoretical world
3) You have never served in the military, therefore all of your arguments about the Iraq war are mired in the theoretical world
4) You are not Palestinian and/or Jewish and have never lived in Gaza and/or Israel (take your pick. Mix and match, if desired) and thus all of your arguments about the middle east are mired in the theoretical world
5) You have never dissected a live dog, therefore your arguments against vivisection are mired in the theoretical world.
6) you have never been the victim of a nuclear explosing, therefore all of your arguments about Iran's nuclear ambitions are mired in the theoretical world.

You admit to knowing zero about firearms and gunboot's association with firearms seems so distant that he can not distinguish between the firing characteristics of a revolver, a double action automatic, and a semi-automatic pistol.

A firearm is an inanimate object. It is not a medical condition or procedure. It is not geopolitics. When you are ignorant about the very object you say is rampant in U.S. society, and that you say must be more regulated, you undermine your position because it is based solely on slogans and theory.
 
You admit to knowing zero about firearms
Once again, you are wrong. You make yourself look foolish with your rash assumptions.

A firearm is an inanimate object. It is not a medical condition or procedure. It is not geopolitics. When you are ignorant about the very object you say is rampant in U.S. society, and that you say must be more regulated, you undermine your position because it is based solely on slogans and theory.
Let us say hypothetically that I have extensive experience handling a wide variety of handguns, long arms, and military rifles.

Does this give me any knowledge about which types of guns are used in crimes?

Does this give me any insight into gun-related suicides?

Does this tell me anything about how many people die in accidental shootings or in crimes of passion, vs. how many crimes are prevented with guns?

Does it inform me in any way as to the routes by which criminals legally and illegally procure guns?

Explain to me how my knowledge of gun operation or lack thereof qualifies me or disqualifies me to voice opinions on gun control.
 
And I assume you can cite legal precedent to support this argument?

Nope. I just said I'd argue it. I don't know if it's been fought through the courts before.

Assuming that the government does have the power to regulate the right to free assembly on public property for the purposes of public safety, doesn't that imply that they may also have the power to regulate firearms in public?

I'm not making that assumption.

Although strangely enough I have never seen where it says in the constitution that the government has the right to strip felons of their constitutional rights.

That's correct, but the government routinely ignores the constitution.

Do you think the right to keep and bear arms is based on natural law?

Yes, the right to defend yourself.

I personally think preventing large numbers of innocent people being injured and killed is far more worthy than maybe preventing one woman from being raped.

How about preventing a large number of women from being raped? How about more rape-preventions than innocents being killed?

But statistics and logic will never defeat bias and emotion.

The statistics are against you in this argument, even if you go with the smallest estimate by the government. 12,000 firearms deaths v. 100,000 defenses.
 
You admit to knowing zero about firearms and gunboot's association with firearms seems so distant that he can not distinguish between the firing characteristics of a revolver, a double action automatic, and a semi-automatic pistol.

A firearm is an inanimate object. It is not a medical condition or procedure. It is not geopolitics. When you are ignorant about the very object you say is rampant in U.S. society, and that you say must be more regulated, you undermine your position because it is based solely on slogans and theory.

Knowing the details of how the mechanisms work is irrelevant to a discussion of the social impact of firearms.
 
Knowing the details of how the mechanisms work is irrelevant to a discussion of the social impact of firearms.

When the anti-firearm contingent confuses full automatic with semi automatic, when they advocate additoinal safety devices for firearms, but are clueless as to the existing safeties, when they want to limit the ammo capacity of magazines because that sounds like a neat deterrent to psychopathic mass murderers, then familiarity of the object of their scorn is indeed not only relevant, but obligatory.
 
When the anti-firearm contingent confuses full automatic with semi automatic, when they advocate additoinal safety devices for firearms, but are clueless as to the existing safeties, when they want to limit the ammo capacity of magazines because that sounds like a neat deterrent to psychopathic mass murderers, then familiarity of the object of their scorn is indeed not only relevant, but obligatory.

And yet, they can be disabused of these misconceptions without being certified marksmen. So once again, you fail. Sorry.
 
And yet, they can be disabused of these misconceptions without being certified marksmen. So once again, you fail. Sorry.

Then why despite continued attempts by firearm enthusiasts to disabuse people like yourself do they continue to be invincibly ignorant? The fact that you somehow construed familiarity with firearms as being a "certified marksman" does not engender optimism that the anti-gun contingent will ever change their ways.
 
When the anti-firearm contingent confuses full automatic with semi automatic, when they advocate additoinal safety devices for firearms, but are clueless as to the existing safeties, when they want to limit the ammo capacity of magazines because that sounds like a neat deterrent to psychopathic mass murderers, then familiarity of the object of their scorn is indeed not only relevant, but obligatory.

High capacity magazines have only one purpose. To extend the number of shots before a shooter needs to stop and reload reload while shooting at humans. They have no use in any sporting sport. I would rather give the psychopath's targets a chance to escape or rush the shooter when he stops to reload.
 
Then why despite continued attempts by firearm enthusiasts to disabuse people like yourself do they continue to be invincibly ignorant? The fact that you somehow construed familiarity with firearms as being a "certified marksman" does not engender optimism that the anti-gun contingent will ever change their ways.

Oh please inform us, great font of all gun wisdom, what knowledge of firearm design, ballistics, ammunition, or safety makes one qualified to express an opinion on gun control legislation?
 
High capacity magazines have only one purpose. To extend the number of shots before a shooter needs to stop and reload reload while shooting at humans. They have no use in any sporting sport. I would rather give the psychopath's targets a chance to escape or rush the shooter when he stops to reload.

How many dead humans can you count at this shooting range?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI&feature=related

Are you getting your info from Chuck Shumer? Maybe you should this this thread out until you can get a handle on some facts.
 
I cheated a little... I'm not a US resident, though I am a citizen and I pay attention to what goes on there politically. :)
 
How many dead humans can you count at this shooting range?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI&feature=related

Are you getting your info from Chuck Shumer? Maybe you should this this thread out until you can get a handle on some facts.

All I see is some guy named Bob showing how fast he can blow his ammunition budget. Doesn't look like a sporting event at all.

Is Bob preparing for the invasion of the zombie hordes or something?
 
All I see is some guy named Bob showing how fast he can blow his ammunition budget. Doesn't look like a sporting event at all.

Is Bob preparing for the invasion of the zombie hordes or something?

But do you see any dead humans because this guy or the guy beside him are using high cap mags?

Sporting events.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF8KpMON4zE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYYbJhusYrE&feature=related

Don't look now, but there is an omelet hanging from your face.
 
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