Guiliani Suspended from Practicing Law

Orphia Nay said:
Is Musk a 2020 election denier?...
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Yes Elon Musk is. Here's what NBC News reported on October 24th.
Billionaire Elon Musk promoted debunked conspiracy theories about election fraud Thursday at the first of a series of planned campaign events across Pennsylvania meant to rally support for former President Donald Trump’s campaign. At a town hall hosted at a high school outside Philadelphia, Musk referred to the false conspiracy theory that Dominion Voting Systems was part of a plot to rig U.S. elections in recent years. NBC News article link
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It's hard for me to accept that these people -- Giuliani, Musk, etc. -- truly believe that elections are routinely rigged, especially on a national scale. I think it's more likely this is just a 'talking point,' an adversarial position they've devised. trump has talked about rigged elections endlessly -- going back to 2016 -- and people like Giuliani and Musk echo it as a way to support trump and gain his favor. They have to buy into elections being rigged if they want to stay in trump's good graces; they really have no other choice.

But as has been pointed out, they have also succeeded in undermining confidence in the US electoral system and I think that is there real aim. That they want to create instability as it's a means of getting themselves into power.
 
newyorkguy said:
It's hard for me to accept that these people -- Giuliani, Musk, etc. -- truly believe that elections are routinely rigged, especially on a national scale. I think it's more likely this is just a 'talking point,' an adversarial position they've devised. trump has talked about rigged elections endlessly -- going back to 2016 -- and people like Giuliani and Musk echo it as a way to support trump and gain his favor. They have to buy into elections being rigged if they want to stay in trump's good graces; they really have no other choice.

But as has been pointed out, they have also succeeded in undermining confidence in the US electoral system and I think that is there real aim. That they want to create instability as it's a means of getting themselves into power.
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Their party routinely rigs elections, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they can't comprend that others could be more moral than them.
 
newyorkguy said:
It's hard for me to accept that these people -- Giuliani, Musk, etc. -- truly believe that elections are routinely rigged, especially on a national scale.
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As far as Giuliani is concerned, we need look no farther than his arguments to the Pennsylvania court. When asked, he specifically said, "We're not alleging fraud." In court, you can be severely disciplined if you allege something for which you have not adequately also alleged plausible supporting fact. He didn't have the goods, and he knew it. Of course he got disbarred anyway, but the point is that what you say in court as an attorney has different consequences than what you say for the cameras on the courthouse steps. You can get a better idea of what people actually believe from circumstances where there are consequences for misrepresentation.

newyorkguy said:
They have to buy into elections being rigged if they want to stay in trump's good graces; they really have no other choice.
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History has shown that very little keeps you in Donald Trump's good graces. In his podcast, Ken White remarked on the likelihood of Trump bailing out Giuliani in some way; Ken's opinion was that if Gliuliani were on fire, Trump wouldn't even piss on him to put it out. If Musk thinks his face is immune from the leopard, he may be surprised.
 
The relatoinsho between Vance and Trump must be interesting. Donnie has not forgotten all those nasty things Vance said about Trump just a few years ago.
Vance is a pure opportunist.
 
Giuliani's lawyers in the election workers defamation case have suddenly quit his case, Yahoo News, among others, is reporting:

Rudy Giuliani’s lawyers have abruptly quit representing him in his defamation case after attorneys for the women he defamed accused the disgraced former New York City mayor of hiding property he has been ordered to turn over. Giuliani’s lead counsel Kenneth Caruso and attorney David Labkowski filed a motion in federal court in New York on Wednesday citing several reasons for their withdrawal, pointing to a “fundamental disagreement” with Donald Trump’s former attorney...The attorneys invoked a New York rule that allows attorneys to withdraw when a “client insists upon taking action with which the lawyer has a fundamental disagreement” or when a client “insists upon presenting a claim or defense that is not warranted under existing law and cannot be supported by good faith argument,” or when “the client fails to cooperate in the representation or otherwise renders the representation unreasonably difficult for the lawyer to carry out employment effectively.” Yahoo News article link
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I'd say it sounds like Rudy qualifies on all three.

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Guys, can you give the Mayor a couple minutes, please?
 
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Apparently with no other choice -- and his legal team having resigned the case -- late Friday Rudy Giuliani began to pay down the $148 million judgement awarded to the two Georgia election workers he defamed by making repeated false statements about them. The Guardian (among other news outlets) reports:

Rudy Giuliani has relinquished dozens of watches and a Mercedes once owned by movie star Lauren Bacall to two former Georgia election workers who won a $148m defamation judgment against him, his lawyer said. Joseph Cammarata said in a letter filed late on Friday in Manhattan federal court that the trove of watches and a ring were delivered by FedEx to a bank in Atlanta, Georgia, in the morning. The 1980 Mercedes-Benz SL 500 was turned over at an address in Hialeah, Florida, and an undisclosed amount of funds from Giuliani’s Citibank accounts were also surrendered to the two women who won the judgment, according to the letter. The Guardian article link
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Joseph Cammarata is Giuliani's newest attorney. Cammarata is best known as the lawyer who represented Paula Jones in her sexual harassment lawsuit against Bill Clinton.
 
newyorkguy said:
Apparently with no other choice -- and his legal team having resigned the case -- late Friday Rudy Giuliani began to pay down the $148 million judgement awarded to the two Georgia election workers he defamed by making repeated false statements about them. The Guardian (among other news outlets) reports:



Joseph Cammarata is Giuliani's newest attorney. Cammarata is best known as the lawyer who represented Paula Jones in her sexual harassment lawsuit against Bill Clinton.
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The last sentence of the article is particularly insane:
Giuliani . . . expects to win on appeal and get back all his possessions.
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Good luck, Rudy-balls, trying to get your possessions after they've been sold. Why would the plaintiffs getting possession of the watches, the Mercedes, etc., if all appeals have not been exhausted? IANAL, but one would think that plaintiffs would only get possession of material goods after all appeals have been exhausted. Otherwise, they could sell those possessions, and appeal could rule against them, and how do they get the possessions back?

Or, it could be Rudys-balls' new lawyer spouting nonsense?


ETA: I suppose I should explain "Rudy-balls." My best friend growing up went to India and met a swami named Rama-something-something and he called him (not to his face) "Ram-balls." That nickname has stuck with me. My cat's name is Darwin but I often call her "Dar-balls." It's a term of affection.
 
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Paul2 said:
Why would the plaintiffs getting possession of the watches, the Mercedes, etc., if all appeals have not been exhausted? IANAL, but one would think that plaintiffs would only get possession of material goods after all appeals have been exhausted.
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An appeal does not by itself stay a collection of the judgment. A judgment is collectible the moment it is entered, but in New York you have a 30-day grace period. The judgment is ordinarily stayed for that period by the trial court. Staying the judgment pending appeal is a separate motion and order, and must be secured by a bond known as a supersedeas bond. If you can't put up the bond, you can't stay the collection of judgment pending appeal. This is the same problem Donald Trump had in his own case. Giuliani is broke and his credit is no good, so he doesn't get to stay the judgment.

Paul2 said:
Otherwise, they could sell those possessions, and appeal could rule against them, and how do they get the possessions back?
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If his appeal is successful, the plaintiffs would be liable to Giuliani either for the return of the items still in their possession or for the market value of them if they have been sold. The plaintiffs would be under no obligation to repurchase and return the actual items. Giuliani is liable only for a dollar amount in judgment, and a reversal of that judgment would result only in dollar-amount liability. His practice of liquidating his assets to satisfy that debt does not create an obligation for anyone to preserve those assets expressly.
 
The grounds for Giuliani's appeal are hard to find since Giuliani doesn't appear willing to discuss them. The best I could find was an article from last February in USA Today.

Giuliani has argued that his claims were statements protected under the First Amendment and made without actual malice. Giuliani's lawyer requested a new trial. USA Today article link
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What I found interesting was an earlier USA Today article, from December 2023. The trial judge commented on Giuliani's apparent plan to ignore the initial court trial and then appeal that verdict.

Giuliani appeared to anticipate appealing the case. In choosing not to contest the defamation allegations, Giuliani held onto the chance to argue that his comments about the women were constitutionally protected speech. Judge Howell said she expects an appeal, based on Giuliani’s failure to share evidence in the case under a process called "discovery."

"The reservations in Giuliani’s stipulations make clear his goal to bypass the discovery process and a merits trial − at which his defenses may be fully scrutinized and tested in our judicial system’s time-honored adversarial process − and to delay such a fair reckoning by taking his chances on appeal, based on the abbreviated record he forced on plaintiffs," Howell wrote. USA Today article link
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Apparently, Giuliani's plan is to, basically, retry the case in an appeals court.
 
I can just imagine Giuliani's appeal fiasco case.

  • Attorney: "Your Honor, Mr. Giuliani emphasizes, he believed the allegations, there was no malice and ...."
  • Judge: "Counselor, just a minute. When you use that phrase 'he believed' you always make air quotes with your fingers. Why is that?"
  • Attorney: "Well, uh..."
  • Judge: "Appeal dismissed!"

:cool:
 
I figured Giuliani's plan was to try to run out the clock before death takes him. He's 112 years old, and in worse physical shape than most 120-year-olds.
 
An Associated Press news story filed late Friday evening gave details of how assets were finally turned over. It also reported a somewhat ominous comment by Giuliani's new lawyer, Joseph Cammarata, referring to trump having been elected president. Cammarata first came to public attention when he represented Paula Jones in her lawsuit against Bill Clinton some years ago.

Joseph Cammarata said in a letter filed late Friday in Manhattan federal court that the trove of watches and a ring were delivered by FedEx to a bank in Atlanta, Georgia, in the morning. The 1980 Mercedes-Benz SL 500 was turned over at an address in Hialeah, Florida, and an undisclosed amount of funds from Giuliani’s Citibank accounts were also surrendered to the two women who won the judgment, according to the letter.

Cammarata, in an email, didn’t respond to follow-up questions but called Giuliani “a victim of political persecution” and said this month’s election demonstrated Americans were tired of “witch-hunts, indictments, impeachments, prosecutions, convictions, civil cases and judgments.” “The people of this great nation have spoken; my legal team and client intend to do the same,” Cammarata wrote. “We will not relent.” Associated Press article link
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Ted Goodman, Giuliani's 'political adviser' and spokesperson, posted on X:

"This is what they're doing to Mayor Giuliani—the man who saved New York, took down the Mafia, and comforted the world after 9/11." Link to Goodman's X post with video
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Below is an image from a video Goodman posted. Some of Giuliani's watches that Goodman turned over at a FedEx in Florida.
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This is what they're doing to Mayor Giuliani? Making him obey the law? Sooo unfair! :cry:
 
All I can think is ugh, imagine how a leather wristband must smell after being clasped around that doddering corpse's wrist for a long time. I hope they were just for collecting and not wearing.
 
Norman Alexander said:
And how does anyone know this stuff hasn't been bought recently at a trash-and-treasure using his "pocket money", and that his real stuff is still at home?
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Good point, although a similar switcheroo will be more difficult to do with the Mercedes (the VIN will have been in court documents, no?)
 
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