Guardian: I was an astrologer – here's how it really works, and why I had to stop

[dann]

People will never get past their cultures.

Russia was a Communist country for 74 years and China is still a Communist country and BOTH are home to the most superstitious populations of the industrialized world. China's superstitions have been destructive to endangered wildlife hunted for various body parts for use in Chines herbal medicines. Both countries had cultural revolutions that saw clerics and priests silenced by execution yet both are home to a** backwards populations of Woo Believers.

You may not have noticed, but I never claimed that executing clerics and priests would eliminate religion. You didn't read a single thing I wrote, did you?!

 

[dann]

Back in the heyday of BCSkeptics - say, 1980s and early 1990s - there was a strong overlap with atheism in the membership. This led to a source of schism, as the atheists were highly associated with Communism (red berets all round, 'better red than dead' T-shirts &c) and generally had bought into the Barefoot Doctor's claims that Traditional Chinese Medicine was the only 'true' scientific medicine.

It was fascinating to watch their facial expressions when confronted with the cognitive dissonance for what seemed like the first time in their lives: "But, but... we're pro science... that means we need to educate the public about the benefits of TCM... what's all this antiscience in organized skepticism saying acupuncture doesn't work?"

I have discussed TCM - as well as Western alt. med. like homeopathy with Cubans. Most Cuban doctors insist on science-based health care and despise superstitious beliefs. However, the more difficult it becomes for them to get hold of science-based medicine, the easier it is to persuade ordinary Cubans that homeopathic remedies may help them.

I was never a fan of the kind of societies they had in China, Russian or Eastern Europe, but I don't think that blutosk and Axxman300 seriously considered other cases than Russia and China?

Eastern Germany: the most godless place on Earth - East German atheism can be seen as a form of continuing political and regional identification – and a taste of the future (Guardian, Sep. 22, 2012)

The Czech Republic is one of the least religious countries in the world. (...) In 1994 According to STEM called themselves atheists are 21.5% [clarification needed] of persons aged 18 years and 20.3% of those aged 15–17 years, while a further 38.2%, respectively 40.8% of people said they are not religious.
Religion in the Czech Republic: Irreligion (Wikipedia)

Cuba was a fairly secularized country until religion returned with a vengeance along with el periodo especial in the early 1990s.

 

[dann]

It may be easier. But easier doesn't count. It is possible, no matter what your circumstances, to recognize that magical thinking does not work.

Of course, easier counts! Why would you want to make it difficult for people to give up religion? Is it some kind of test of people's steadfastness to you?! I have nothing whatsoever agains convenience atheists. They are my favourite kind, actually. The clenched-fists atheists are pathetic.

And I never claimed that it was impossible "to recognize that that magical thinking doesn't work" even if you find yourself in dire circumstances, but it's easier to give up your talisman after you've left the foxhole than while you're still in it.
And that is the reason why James Morrow says that the slogan about (no) atheists in foxholes is a better argument against foxholes than against atheism.

The atheist/foxhole argument is supposed to show that foolish atheists will find GAWD when pushed to the wall. I promise that I will die without my saying a single prayer.

Good for you that you can bask in the glow of your own heroic attitude! I guess it's the 'I'm the best, **** the rest' for you, then?!

The Universe does not care. Whether you want it to or not.

No, it doesn't. Did anybody claim that it did??!

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Of course, easier counts! Why would you want to make it difficult for people to give up religion? Is it some kind of test of people's steadfastness to you?! I have nothing whatsoever agains convenience atheists. They are my favourite kind, actually. The clenched-fists atheists are pathetic.

Easier does not count against reality. "Convenience atheists"? "Convenience atheists"? "My favourite kind" -- do I get a pat on the head?

And I never claimed that it was impossible "to recognize that that magical thinking doesn't work" even if you find yourself in dire circumstances, but it's easier to give up your talisman after you've left the foxhole than while you're still in it.

Nope, it's easier to give up your magical thinking before you go in the foxhole. Rationally, with no threat. Plus, then you might not go.

And that is the reason why James Morrow says that the slogan about (no) atheists in foxholes is a better argument against foxholes than against atheism.

James may say that but it's not what the aphorism is taken to mean by everyone else vide:
There are no atheists in foxholes

Good for you that you can bask in the glow of your own heroic attitude! I guess it's the 'I'm the best, **** the rest' for you, then?!

Ha. Ha. Ha. Like I care what you think. Heroism? It's a cold and lonely Universe. Deal with it as you wish.

No, it doesn't. Did anybody claim that it did??!

Those who have religion?

 

[dann]

Easier does not count against reality. "Convenience atheists"? "Convenience atheists"? "My favourite kind" -- do I get a pat on the head?

1) Convenience atheist was a term I invented on the spot in lack of a better word. What I had in mind was the kind of atheist that tends to be the majority around here: People who have simply grown out of religion because they no longerneed it and therefore don't see the point of it. The happiest of them are probably the ones who also grew up entirely without religion. They never seriously considered if there might be a God. The very concept sounds silly to them so why bother even considering if might be such a thing? What would be the point of it?
2) I learned a term from KellyB (I think) that is close to my idea of convenience atheist: apatheist.
3) No.

Nope, it's easier to give up your magical thinking before you go in the foxhole. Rationally, with no threat. Plus, then you might not go.

You don't get it at all! I (and James Morrow, too!) don't want to go in the foxhole at all - with or without a god. I would never go in the foxhole, and I don't think it's rational at all to do so. The rational thing to do when you learn about the existence of foxholes is to find out how foxholes (i.e. war) can be abolished.
And people don't usually go in foxholes because they believe in God. They usually aren't even asked if they want to go there. But once they are there, they are confronted with a reality that gives them the need to believe in one god or another. When you can see no rational way out of the hell you've been placed in, believing in an irrational one becomes very tempting.
(One of the few temptations that Christians are in favor of!)

James may say that but it's not what the aphorism is taken to mean by everyone else vide:
There are no atheists in foxholes

No, of course it isn't! It was invented by idiots to make people who reject their idiocy seem idiotic. And it's also a threat! 'Get off your high horse! When you find yourself in dire straits, you too will turn to God!'

The genius of James Morrow is that he turns it upside down. He uses it against the Bible thumpers: 'If being in a foxhole makes you turn to God, then I'm against foxholes, not pro God!'

Ha. Ha. Ha. Like I care what you think. Heroism? It's a cold and lonely Universe. Deal with it as you wish.

What a boring metaphor! That's actually what a Christian may tell you as a reason why you should seek comfort in Christ! And the metaphor is also as wrong as it can be. Sometimes the universe is beyond burning hot. Sometimes it's lukewarm, and sometimes it's cold. Sometimes it's lonely and sometimes it's so crowded you can hardly breathe.
That it's supposed to be cold and lonely is just your way of saying, 'Life is tough, but I'm tough enough to handle it without religion.'
So again: Good for you. You're so ******* brave and we all admire your courage!

Those who have religion?

Not anybody who has religion that I know. I haven't heard it in my part of the world for more than forty years, I think.

Look, to some extent I can empathize with those of you who had a tough time realizing that there is no God. For most of us in Scandinavia, it wasn't that big a deal, and the (for the most part: cultural) Christians we are confronted with are so secularized that even some of their clergymen are open about not believing in God or an afterlife.
Or in other words that you probably don't understand anyway: Our end of the universe is quite comfortable and we are quite content with it most of the time. It could be a little warmer this time of year, but we have a hyggelig time indoors with candles, blankets and æbleskiver when it gets too dark, freezing and wet outside.
I feel sorry for you for having to live in a part of the universe that's cold and lonely, but I get the impression that you don't do much to try to change it.