Guantanamo inmates commit suicide

[Rob Lister]

I think the prisoners are doing the right thing. I think they should be allowed to plan the next one to get far more participation.

 

[The Fool]

Nothing?
We know that they were sincere believers in the "religion of peace".

No you don't...this is what you have been told and you choose to believe it. Yopu know zero about them....nothing.

We know that they were picked up on the battlefield

Most were, some were not, did you know that?

and despite there being no trial I believe that our military had good reason to suspect that they had no peaceful intentions towards us, the infidels.

they have told you they have good reasons, have they told you what the good reasons are?...you choose to believe anyway.

We know that they placed little or no value on even their own lives.

Because the committed suicide? How does that follow?

We have good reason to believe that they subscribed to all that crap about a heavenly reward of virgins for their "sacrifice"

In what way does the crap you assume they subscribe to vary from the crap thier captors subscribe to? Ask Americans if they think they are going to heaven...

To say that we know nothing about them is just plain silly.

I don't know about "we" but you certainly seem to know nothing about them.

 

[WildCat]

That was if they were spies, this is a matter of a militia, with many people set free because it was determined, even without a trial, that they were not guilty of criminal acts. Once again, where is the process to demonstrate they are guilty of anything.

No it is not. There are rules of warfare, put in place to protect non-combatants as much as possible in a war. Thus the requirement for uniforms, chains of command, etc. These people have violated these rules, and they violate them willfully and knowingly. It wasn't just spies who were shot in WWII - saboteurs were also. And that is the closest equivalent to the merry bunch we have in Gitmo. Soldiers on the battlefield aren't a police force, carefully gathering and documenting evidence to be used in a trial, it is silly to assume as much of them.

The Magna Carta was one of the seminal documents of the march to democracy, the notion that if you were to be punished for anything, it had to be done using a process independent of the ruler, open for all to see. Guantanamo effectively shreds the Magna Carta.

The Magna Carta only applied if "you" happened to be a nobleman. Didn't apply at all to the regular folks, who served at the pleasure of the nobility and could be done w/ as they pleased.

If trials are given, it is at the pleasure of the US military. This is above and beyond what the rules of war require of the military, and certainly far better than what any coalition personnel could expect at the hands of the enemy.

 

[WildCat]

Thank you for an informative, rather than shrill, answer.

So if these were cooperative prisoners, who were allowed priviledges equivalent to US prisoners, the question remains: WHY did they hang themselves? Any answers?

Because they could see the writing on the wall? Heck - if they were wanting to be martyrs, they would have let the evil USA kill them after a public trial, not commit suicide on the quiet.

Overcome with waves of irrepressible guilt? What, now? These "heartless conniving criminals"? And after more than three years with daily bed and food? Give me a break...

It's all very good waxing lyrical about "The only good Gitmo prisoner is a dead Gitmo prisoner". If you read up above, all of them seem to have been condemned out of hand for something that has yet to be proven at trial. You wouldn't do that to a US criminal, but you would to these people. Is that right? If so, why the double standard?

And please don't take that question as being an appeasment, or plea for their innocence. Perhaps they were all as guilty as hell and should be left to rot, I sure don't know. But no-one knows anything because they haven't been properly tried and found guilty. Which is one of the cornerstones of "US democracy" you are actively advocating to them. Yet you all cheer when they are denied it...

Good one.

Sorry Zep, but the military is not a democracy, nor is the prosecution of war democratic. The US has decided to hold these illegal combatants alive, rather than putting them before a firing squad as was the norm in the past. They are not being held for trial, as if they were common criminals.

 

[Kopji]

Many of the Gitmo prisoners see their death as a victory over our efforts to make the prison appear just or legitimate.

To have multiple suicides is not so much an indication of poor treatment, but that we are out of control. By our lack of control have allowed them to make a political statement.

The deaths are a message, and we have given them a worldwide podium to provide that message: They would rather die for their cause as martyrs than submit.

Gitmo is of far more value to terrorists than us, they have shown that over and over. They must enjoy our foolish ignorance of what their war is all about.

 

[a_unique_person]

Sorry Zep, but the military is not a democracy, nor is the prosecution of war democratic. The US has decided to hold these illegal combatants alive, rather than putting them before a firing squad as was the norm in the past. They are not being held for trial, as if they were common criminals.

And we know all this how? Some people were sold up for the reward, on no basis of fact at all. Read the quote I supplied in a previous post. Military Prosecutors were quitting because they knew it was just con.

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

These people have violated these rules, and they violate them willfully and knowingly.

For what, precisely? A suicide attempt gets categorised as an act of war by the Americans now. What have they been up to? Nose-picking? Jaywalking?

 

[Dog Boots]

The US has decided to hold these illegal combatants alive, rather than putting them before a firing squad as was the norm in the past..

And look how grateful they are...

 

[Zep]

Sorry Zep, but the military is not a democracy, nor is the prosecution of war democratic. The US has decided to hold these illegal combatants alive, rather than putting them before a firing squad as was the norm in the past. They are not being held for trial, as if they were common criminals.

I'm terribly sorry, but this is so incorrect that I do have to object.

Firing squads happened AFTER A TRIAL. Even enemy saboteurs and spies get a trial. Even the military hold courts martial before sentences are carried out. Sure, it could be a show trial like Stalin, or in camera like the UK, but it's a trial nonetheless. Every domestic spy caught by the Allies in WW2 did have a trial before being executed or gaoled.

What's more, these days, those convicted of treason and sabotage and spying are hardly likely to face the death sentence anyway. At the very worst, a long solitary confinement awaits them, not last words and a last cigarette and a blindfold.

However the question remains: If these people are so goddamned guilty of all these crimes, why have they not had a trial and been convicted after more than three years in Gitmo? If the military is convinced of their guilt, why have they not got them in front of a military judge and had them dealt with properly? Even military courts recognise denial of due process.

As I said, these prisoners may be guilty as hell, but without a proper trial and conviction, they are still technically innocent. Yes? YES??

 

[andyandy]

However the question remains: If these people are so goddamned guilty of all these crimes, why have they not had a trial and been convicted after more than three years in Gitmo? If the military is convinced of their guilt, why have they not got them in front of a military judge and had them dealt with properly? Even military courts recognise denial of due process.

As I said, these prisoners may be guilty as hell, but without a proper trial and conviction, they are still technically innocent. Yes? YES??

"innocent til proved guilty?" What a quaint notion .....

 

[rjh01]

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed. They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of ...warfare waged against us,"

The above is a quote from the article. I think it refers just as well to the US military and some of the posters here.

One of the things I know about this prison is that a lot of them are innocent. There were several British people held there. All were released without charge and sent home. And People here have condemned innocent people.

In Australia we lock up boat people. These people are not criminals. A lot who have been there long term hang themselves, which in some cases is fatal. Many of the rest suffer long term trauma. I can see no difference between our boat people and your prisoners.

Boat people - are people who enter Australia illegally and do not wish to go home.

 

[Zep]

"innocent til proved guilty?" What a quaint notion .....

Yes, I know... Aren't I just so naive?

Mind you, if you believe to the contrary, it will come as a rude shock the first time you get put against a wall and shot for a parking violation.

 

[andyandy]

Yes, I know... Aren't I just so naive?

Mind you, if you believe to the contrary, it will come as a rude shock the first time you get put against a wall and shot for a parking violation.

lol

I'm still waiting for a good reason as to why those held in guantanamo don't require a trial.....
A US military officer was being interviewed on the BBC this morning, and the best he could do was "well....it takes time to process people...."

If after nearly 5 years of detention, repeated interrogation and (one hopes) hundreds of hours of investigation, there is no charge that can be brought in a court of law, then one would have to presume there was no case to answer.

If they're guilty - and there is evidence to back up that assertion (which there should be seeing as how they're detained) then they should be tried and sentenced.....

to give some BS excuse about it "taking time" to process people is simply disingenuous....5 years one would hope would be time enough.

 

[yanit]

In Australia we lock up boat people. These people are not criminals. A lot who have been there long term hang themselves, which in some cases is fatal. Many of the rest suffer long term trauma. I can see no difference between our boat people and your prisoners.

A book about that.

Perhaps some people on this board need to read it.

 

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by YoPopa :

Nothing?
We know that they were sincere believers in the "religion of peace".

No you don't...this is what you have been told and you choose to believe it. Yopu know zero about them....nothing.

You're right. I thnk they were probably Jehovah's Witnesses, and they were at Gitmo because Bush got annoyed at them banging at the White House door every weekend with copies of Awake!

 

[BPSCG]

No you don't...this is what you have been told and you choose to believe it. Yopu know zero about them....nothing.

One of the things I know about this prison is that a lot of them are innocent.

Emphases mine.

Why don't you boys fight it out between yourselves, and report back to the rest of us when you've come to a conclusion, okay?

 

[a_unique_person]

The above is a quote from the article. I think it refers just as well to the US military and some of the posters here.

One of the things I know about this prison is that a lot of them are innocent. There were several British people held there. All were released without charge and sent home. And People here have condemned innocent people.

In Australia we lock up boat people. These people are not criminals. A lot who have been there long term hang themselves, which in some cases is fatal. Many of the rest suffer long term trauma. I can see no difference between our boat people and your prisoners.

Boat people - are people who enter Australia illegally and do not wish to go home.

Australia's treatment of it's illegal immigrants and asylum seekers is an absolute disgrace. And to think John Howard was quite happy to demonise them to win an election.

 

[kalen]

No it is not. There are rules of warfare, put in place to protect non-combatants as much as possible in a war. Thus the requirement for uniforms, chains of command, etc. These people have violated these rules, and they violate them willfully and knowingly. It wasn't just spies who were shot in WWII - saboteurs were also. And that is the closest equivalent to the merry bunch we have in Gitmo. Soldiers on the battlefield aren't a police force, carefully gathering and documenting evidence to be used in a trial, it is silly to assume as much of them.


The Magna Carta only applied if "you" happened to be a nobleman. Didn't apply at all to the regular folks, who served at the pleasure of the nobility and could be done w/ as they pleased.

If trials are given, it is at the pleasure of the US military. This is above and beyond what the rules of war require of the military, and certainly far better than what any coalition personnel could expect at the hands of the enemy.

Rules that must be followed? Requirement for uniform?

These guys weren't dressed as tourists.

From the article:

Two SAS soldiers were freed from a jail in Basra under the watch of British armoured vehicles last night a few hours after they were seized by Iraqis during the worst riots in Iraq's second city in two years.

They had been wearing Arab clothes when they were arrested in the southern city by a Shia militia loyal to the Iraqi government.

Why have one standard when you can have two!

 

[kalen]

There have been numerous (dozens of) suicide attempts at Guantanamo, but none have succeeded until now. Strange, no?

Maybe not as strange as the spin the US is putting on this:

Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'

A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".

Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary.

Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

 

[Ziggurat]

Gitmo is of far more value to terrorists than us, they have shown that over and over. They must enjoy our foolish ignorance of what their war is all about.

I have no doubt that the terrorists get a propaganda benefit from all the hysteria about Gitmo. But I question this conclusion, because quite frankly our side isn't going to talk about the value it really gets out of Gitmo. We're not going to reveal what intelligence we receive from these guys, how effective our efforts there are, etc. It's an asymmetrical situation, to be sure, but I don't think we on the outside really have all the information necessary to conclude that Gitmo is "of far more value to terrorists than us". I doubt it, though, for the very simple reason that I think the military would ask to close it (and almost certainly get their request granted) if they thought they weren't getting more benefit from it than it cost.