Great Time.com article. "Larry King and the Paranormal

SteveGrenard said:
EDOLPH--do you know how to spell schrodinger yet?
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Well, I know enough to capitalize it.

Where did I try to spell that particular krauts name?
 
CFLarsen said:
Again, Steve does not supply sources for his extensive quoting.
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But, what is the relevance? He is just frothing, I think. It is best not to post when one is frothing. Embarassing, don't you know.
 
Am I understanding this correctly?

Steve is claiming that impedance is measured in volts, because the battery in the impedance meter is?

Please tell me I am wrong. Please.
 
Ed said:
But, what is the relevance? He is just frothing, I think. It is best not to post when one is frothing. Embarassing, don't you know.
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Well, as long as he doesn't froth on me, I guess it's OK.
 
Steve, I read the material about the impedance meters you've provided, but I don't see the bit where it states that the impedance is measured in volts. Or was this material not meant to illustrate that?
 
JamesM said:
Steve, I read the material about the impedance meters you've provided, but I don't see the bit where it states that the impedance is measured in volts. Or was this material not meant to illustrate that?
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The problem James is the usual misquoting and misattribution or deliberate play dumbo misunderstanding practiced by certain clowns on this board. I have never said that impedance is reported or measured in anything but kilo ohms.

Let me know if you understand this as it appears that the TBK-Ed-Claus do not.

I said that in human testing of the impedance provided by the skin, an electrical current, denominated actually in microAmperes and frequency, (microvolts also) is used to determine that resistance. This test current is sent through a referential electrode, picked up by a seeking or exploring electrode placed on the spot you wish to determine impedance for and then measured in kilo ohms on the device. These electrodes, when operational, measure microvolt level
currents (10 to 300 microvolts ) produced by the human body and then record these with respect to frequency and amplitude on a calibrated chart recorder, oscilloscope (cal=50 microvolts per vertical cm) or chart recorder program on a PC which is the std nowadays.


If you scroll back you will see that I have repeatedly ephasized that impedance meters read out in ohms, well actually kilo ohms is more convenient (cuts down on the# of zeros one has to write where human skin impedances are concerned).
 
CFLarsen said:
Am I understanding this correctly?

Steve is claiming that impedance is measured in volts, because the battery in the impedance meter is?

Please tell me I am wrong. Please.
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Well, I only took electronics for a couple of years, far less than 30, but as I recall E in a measurement device is sorta constant so when a certain current flows R can be computed. In fact, an Ohmmeter is an Ammeter with a new scale. If E varies as a function of R then the supply is unregulated (ie, not producing a constant potential). I guess you can do it that way but it sounds odd. Again, I am working from ancient memories. I really find it hard to believe that they use volts, even Steves superfluous post says something about Ohms. Maybe he is confusing the signal strength with contact resistance? As I recall, we measured EEG in microvolts, could be wrong by an order of magnitude. Who knows.
 
SteveGrenard said:
The problem James is the usual misquoting and misattribution or deliberate play dumbo misunderstanding practiced by certain clowns on this board. I have never said that impedance is reported or measured in anything but kilo ohms.

I think that I quoted you accurately. Incidentially, one would correctly say that something is measured in Ohms, the kilo simply refers to the scale. Ohms is the unit.

Let me know if you understand this as it appears that the TBK-Ed-Claus do not.

I said that in human testing of the impedance provided by the skin, an electrical current, denominated actually in microAmperes and frequency, (microvolts also)

Frequency in in Hertz, not microvolts.

is used to determine that resistance. This test current is sent through a referential electrode, picked up by a seeking or exploring electrode placed on the spot you wish to determine impedance for and then measured in kilo ohms on the device. These electrodes, when operational, measure microvolt level
currents (10 to 300 microvolts )

OK, got it now. Except if you are measuring current the unit is amperage, not volts. You are measuring changes in potential difference (volts)

produced by the human body and then record these with respect to frequency and amplitude on a calibrated chart recorder, oscilloscope (cal=50 microvolts per vertical cm) or chart recorder program on a PC which is the std nowadays.


If you scroll back you will see that I have repeatedly ephasized that impedance meters read out in ohms, well actually kilo ohms is more convenient (cuts down on the# of zeros one has to write where human skin impedances are concerned).


Ok. I see what happened. Steve just learned the procedure by rote so the actual units and stuff are memorized without understanding. Simple screw-up. Hence the immortal "resistance AKA impedience" statement.
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SteveGrenard said:
I said that in human testing of the impedance provided by the skin, an electrical current, denominated actually in microAmperes and frequency, (microvolts also) is used to determine that resistance.
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Frequency is measured in microvolts??

Steve, go back to school. No, kindergarten. You are a disgrace. That you are ever allowed near sick people is a travesty.

I sincerely hope you never do any harm to other people.
 
SteveGrenard said:

I have never said that impedance is reported or measured in anything but kilo ohms.

Let me know if you understand this
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Ok Steve, I understand that. Just one question. To be totally clear, when you say that
in human testing of the impedance provided by the skin, an electrical current, denominated actually in microAmperes and frequency, (microvolts also) is used to determine that resistance.
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do you mean that the potential difference and frequency that is associated with the current is measured, rather than being a measure of the current itself? This would also make sense of your statement about currents being at a microvolt level. It would be unfortunate if whatever discussion remained feasible between the interested parties here was held up by these rather minor points.
 


The problem James is the usual misquoting and misattribution or deliberate play dumbo misunderstanding practiced by certain clowns on this board. I have never said that impedance is reported or measured in anything but kilo ohms.

Except in this thread. You said this:

the resistance of the skin to the test passage of a current of electricity measured in millionths of a volt (microvolts), not ohms.

That is a direct cut and paste from your post. You might have gone back and editted it, but I'm sure CFL will have the original post saved. You are mistaken or telling lies in this case.


I said that in human testing of the impedance provided by the skin, an electrical current, denominated actually in microAmperes and frequency, (microvolts also) is used to determine that resistance.

Frequency is measured in Hertz (Hz), as in cycles per second.. not in microvolts. Resistance can be calculated from the microAmps and voltage, but an ohmmeter is probably a better tool.

This test current is sent through a referential electrode, picked up by a seeking or exploring electrode placed on the spot you wish to determine impedance for and then measured in kilo ohms on the device. These electrodes, when operational, measure microvolt level
currents (10 to 300 microvolts ) produced by the human body and then record these with respect to frequency and amplitude on a calibrated chart recorder, oscilloscope (cal=50 microvolts per vertical cm) or chart recorder program on a PC which is the std nowadays.

Impedance is measured in ohms, not microvolts. If one knows the impedance and current, microvolts can be calculated.

If you scroll back you will see that I have repeatedly ephasized that impedance meters read out in ohms, well actually kilo ohms is more convenient (cuts down on the# of zeros one has to write where human skin impedances are concerned).

Then why do you keep mentioning microvolts. You are having some serious problems keeping your units straight.
 
It just proves TBK that either you cant read or I can't make myself understood
or both. Probably both.

Read it again. The test current is in microamperes, at certain frequencies (millionths of a volt.) The resistance/impedance is measured by sending this test current through the system. Remember we are not measuring a pre-existing reistance through an inanimate wire or circuit here. We are doing this in people. Human bodies. I have never said that the resistance is not denominated in kilo ohm units. To the contrary, I specifically always said it was.

I think what we have here is me explaining how it is done in people and you not interested in that ---
 
TBK: If one knows the impedance and current, microvolts can be calculated.

Indeed except people are not circuits in the conventional sense. We do NOT know what the impedance is for a particular patch of skin we are interested in using.
Hence we need to send in a test current a
known number of microvolts through the electrode at a gven amperage and frequency and then determine the impedance. Same equation, different unknowns. Geez.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Read it again. The test current is in microamperes, at certain frequencies (millionths of a volt.)
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Steve, you dimwit! Frequencies are not measured in volt!

SteveGrenard said:
The resistance/impedance is measured by sending this test current through the system. Remember we are not measuring a pre-existing reistance through an inanimate wire or circuit here. We are doing this in people. Human bodies. I have never said that the resistance is not denominated in kilo ohm units. To the contrary, I specifically always said it was.
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It doesn't matter what you are sending the current through, you incredible nincompoop!

SteveGrenard said:
I think what we have here is me explaining how it is done in people and you not interested in that ---
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I don't be-f*cking-lieve this. You are dangerous to people, Steve.
 
SteveGrenard said:
TBK: If one knows the impedance and current, microvolts can be calculated.

Indeed except people are not circuits in the conventional sense. We do NOT know what the impedance is for a particular patch of skin we are interested in using.
Hence we need to send in a test current a
known number of microvolts through the electrode at a gven amperage and frequency and then determine the impedance. Same equation, different unknowns. Geez.
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Geez indeed. The problem is that you don't have the foggiest idea of the concept. You are plucking terms out of the air without a clue as to what you are talking about.

The voltage is set. The impedience is set. The current varies as a function of the impedence. R=E/I (for a DC circuit, let's keep it simple). You don't "send in the test current ... at a given amperage". You measure the amperage that results from putting a potential across a load. The current that flows is what you measure directly. It varies, it is not constant. You just don't understand what it is that you are doing. I just told you what you are doing.

Look, if you shot in a current at a given voltage and current then R would always be the same, see? R=E/I. If current and voltage are "given" you just solve the equation. You just don't understand basic electricity, your pronouncements aside.

Put it another way, if you know the voltage and you measure the current the impedence follows.


Wait a sec ....


So when you give an orientation to new folks you pompously explain what you are doing the way you just did to us???????????
You tell them this knowledge is the result of 30 years experience?



:jaw:


Oh, to be a fly on the wall.
 
The means of impedance measurement in humans is based on the Voll two electrode impedance measurement method. One is the measurement electrode (exploring or seeking) which is an Al-AgCl electrode with a diameter of4mm and pasted with an electrolyte gel on the skin. The other is a reference electrode; we use that is AgCL gold plated. Before the measurement, the skin is wiped using ethanol and/or is mildly abraded. The simplest skin impedance model is the Cole equation which is the empirical equation to describe tissue impedance and consists of two ideal resistors and one constant phase element.

You cannot, as much as you would like to, apply anything other than the Cole Equation to this. You must use two electrodes. You must send a current through one and measure the impedance with the other. The test current can be sent at various frequencies, from 5 Hz to 50 Hz depending on your set-up. The amperage is low, in micro amps. In spite of the ranting of some people here who don't know anything about this, this is done routinely every day and every night in every EEG and sleep lab in the world. I have been doing this for years as have my staff. The human skin impedance is obtained in kilo-ohms.

The electrical current manufactured by the heart, muscle activity and brain activity is recorded in microvolts on a
chart recorder (computerized now mostly) calibrated to read 50 microvolts per vertical cm deflection. The frequency is measured in cycles per second. "Paper speed" changes dictates how the curves look to the human eye.


Again, do not apply what you know about household electricity or basic non-biological electrical pricniples to the measurement of impedance in human skin. It is a related but largely different
methodology.
 
Wrong Ed. Get it through your noggin that the impedance of a point on human skin is not set, it is NOT adjustable and it is not predictable. LOL. It is an unknown we are trying to find, establish, determine, measure so we can then lower it to obtain a better electrical current signal from the activity of the brain, heart and/or muscle activity.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Wrong Ed. Get it through your noggin that the impedance of a point on human skin is not set, it is NOT adjustable and it is not predictable. LOL. It is an unknown we are trying to find, establish, determine, measure so we can then lower it to obtain a better electrical current signal from the activity of the brain, heart and/or muscle activity.
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I have no doubt that that is what you do. I simply observe that you have no idea how you get there. Which is fairly obvious.

Can you explain why you use the Cole Equation when all you are attempting to do is get a good contact? Specifically, why?
 
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