Gravy at Ground Zero

[Scientologist]

I say we ban Oliver for being a moron.

 

[Oliver]

I say we ban Oliver for being a moron.

Is this you, PDoherty? For what reason - explain. (Oh, Scientology)

 

[Gravy]

I´m not sure about your agenda. It could be your
respect for the people who died there, the rescue
teams, firefighters and so on but it could also be
a political one.

I missed your statement about your reasons.

Well, I'm not sure what political agenda a liberal could be trying to advance by debunking people who lie about 9/11.

Basically, it offends me that these people lie constantly, completely, and loudly, yet call themselves a "Truth" movement. It offends me that most of them can't be bothered to take the issue seriously enough to learn about it. I've written about my motivations in all my papers and in many posts in this forum. This post, which won The Language Award last month (undeserved, but I'll take it), sums it up.

 

[Oliver]

Well, I'm not sure what political agenda a liberal could be trying to advance by debunking people who lie about 9/11.

Basically, it offends me that these people lie constantly, completely, and loudly, yet call themselves a "Truth" movement. It offends me that most of them can't be bothered to take the issue seriously enough to learn about it. I've written about my motivations in all my papers and in many posts in this forum. This post, which won The Language Award last month (undeserved, but I'll take it), sums it up.

I agree concerning fighting lies - i see no gain in
spreading lies beside attracting attention and
hate-mongering against the US-Gov.

Progress would mean discussing the proofable issues
around 9/11 - especially the political side.

I will read your linked thread now.

 

[60hzxtl]

Gravy's washed his hands of these people so many times they've been bleached white!

Yipes man! Put those things out in the sun, is that why we wear shades at GZ on Saturdays!

 

[Gravy]

I see no connections from the moon-landing to 9/11.
How many people died because the moon landing and
how many wars were started because it?
[eta]How many laws changed?[/eta]

I consider these things after learning what this whole
discussion is about.

My point was that no matter how much evidence exists that an event happened, such as the moon landings or Oswald shooting JFK, there will always be people who disbelieve it. The fact that thousands of people died on 9/11 doesn't excuse the irrationality, dishonesty, and laziness of the deniers.

 

[Oliver]

Did read the link. Your statement sounds like you miss
the political side of the movement/the political agendas.

I don´t think that most of them are paranoid like Killtown.
Many know exactly what is lie and what not.

Ever thought about the idea if one truther meets
another one, they say:

"Well, we all know this MIHOP stuff is crap - but it
helps to spread interest to our political anti-gov agenda.
Funny how Gravy is trying to tell us the things we already
know nevertheless."

 

[Gravy]

Gravy's washed his hands of these people so many times they've been bleached white!

Yipes man! Put those things out in the sun, is that why we wear shades at GZ on Saturdays!

Yeah, it's not pretty. I wear sunscreen and a hat. It's a skin cancer thing. My hands are still pale from wearing cycling gloves on two long trips, and the last one was three years ago!

 

[Spins]

You are not the only one who got suspicious when viewing this - Besides his kind of medicated face, what got my attention is his phrasing - "My father passed away here." Not he died here, not his life was snuffed out here, but "passed away" as if he died in his own bed, that just happened to be at WTC.

If he is a fake, he is trying to put himself at a higher plane of victim, one who can't be questioned.

Would love a name for this guy.

Whether he is fake or not he is certainly playing the innocent victim, he who cannot be questioned. Time and time again throughout that video he says his "father died here" (or words to that effect) because he knows everyone will back off out of respect, I personally think its pathetic. Instead of trying to take the moral high ground he might want to back up what he says with facts at some point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

 

[Gravy]

Did read the link. Your statement sounds like you miss
the political side of the movement/the political agendas.

I don´t think that most of them are paranoid like Killtown.
Many know exactly what is lie and what not.

Ever thought about the idea if one truther meets
another one, they say:

"Well, we all know this MIHOP stuff is crap - but it
helps to spread interest to our political anti-gov agenda.
Funny how Gravy is trying to tell us the things we already
know nevertheless."

If I'm saying the opposite of what they say, how can I be telling them things they already know?

I deal with what the other side says at Ground Zero. Their claims aren't supported by evidence, and therefore don't support their political goals. If you have evidence that elements of the Bush administration was involved in LIHOP of MIHOP, I'd love to see it, and I'd love to bring it to the New York Times. Haven't seen any so far, have you?

 

[Oliver]

Whether he is fake or not he is certainly playing the innocent victim, he who cannot be questioned. Time and time again throughout that video he says his "father died here" (or words to that effect) because he knows everyone will back off out of respect, I personally think its pathetic. Instead of trying to take the moral high ground he might want to back up what he says with facts at some point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

I don´t judge someone without knowing him.
Therefore it´s a littlebit like RoxDog´s bashing
just because thinking someone is fake.

 

[Oliver]

I deal with what the other side says at Ground Zero. Their claims aren't supported by evidence, and therefore don't support their political goals. If you have evidence that elements of the Bush administration was involved in LIHOP of MIHOP, I'd love to see it, and I'd love to bring it to the New York Times. Haven't seen any so far, have you?

There is no evidence for MIHOP.
LIHOP is another thing but i´m still learning...

 

[Spins]

I don´t judge someone without knowing him.
Therefore it´s a littlebit like RoxDog´s bashing
just because thinking someone is fake.

I personally believe him, but I don't like they way he is using it to win debates/arguments. He needs to stop trying to appeal to emotion and back up what he says with real facts.

 

[Oliver]

I personally believe him, but I don't like they way he is using it to win debates/arguments. He needs to stop trying to appeal to emotion and back up what he says with real facts.

I also don´t like it if somebody tries to appeal
emotions but in the scene where the reporter
said his impression about them and he´s going
away - it seemed to be the only last thing that
was left to say in this situation: A unintentional
explanation to excuse himself for the reporters
argument.

Looked very natural to me. But you may look
again to this particular scene to estimate the
situation.

 

[Gravy]

By the way, I only cursed at the guy in the beginning because, after I had corrected everything he had just said to the public, he brought up "NORAD's stand down," he refused to listen to my correction about that, and then he said he was proud of what he was saying. That really set me off. I'm surprised that people thought I was keeping my cool. I don't call people a-holes every day!

The cameraman and the two guys with the purple banner were from TruthMove.org, which only appears to have those three members. Another thing they edited out is them saying that I didn't know what I was talking about and me asking each of them to name a single thing I said that was wrong. Their reply: "I don't think we need to engage in that kind of thing." Right. No need to have evidence when you claim that someone is lying. I spend my entire time there correcting them, but no denier that I've encountered at Ground Zero has been able to tell me a single thing that I've gotten wrong.

They also chose not to include in the video my asking each truther (including those three) what NIST gave as the reasons for the tower collapses. Of course none of them have any idea, although their main argument at Ground Zero is that the towers couldn't have fallen the way they did without explosives.

This is as basic as it gets. If you're going to vehemently claim that a version of events is false, it helps to know what that version is. Not a single denier I've encountered at Ground Zero has ever known what the official version is!

 

[uk_dave]

I think they're frightened of the official account because, just as those who say they didn't believe in a CT until they watched loosechange, people can be easily swayed by well presented and detailed presentation, even when in the case of LC the presentation isn't factual.

If the woowoos start reading the evidence in favour of the official account then they will start to have self doubt and, if there is one thing we have learned about woowoos it is that they really REALLY dislike uncertainty.

 

[Oliver]

But what about the guys who KNOW that the whole
MIHOP story is crap but never admit it because they
are not going to destroy their own agenda?

Roxdog and his regular Anti-Bush threads is just a
sample about this behavior. They don´t care one
second about the truth - they simply fade these
things away.


I see several kinds of truthers:

The dumb and/or paranoid
The Anti-War motivated
The Anti-Gov motivated
The Manchester Resistance

 

[Horatius]

But what about the guys who KNOW that the whole
MIHOP story is crap but never admit it because they
are not going to destroy their own agenda?

Roxdog and his regular Anti-Bush threads is just a
sample about this behavior. They don´t care one
second about the truth - they simply fade these
things away.

In that case, I'd say they are even worse, and need to be exposed and/or opposed even more.

Someone who says the towers came down in a CD because they actually believe that can be argued with. They may be stupid or ignorant, but they're not neccessarily evil. Someone who simply professes such a belief for cynical political gain is just scum.

I've had an idea for a posting in the back of my mind for a few days that I really need to get to work on, all about beliefs, opinions, attitudes and the commitment to truth....

 

[Free Thinkr]

I have to disagree, because he's a liar like all the rest of them. He says he "just wants an investigation." He says he "just wants people to think for himself. Yet, there he is standing next to a huge banner that says "911 was an inside job," arguing the "911 bowel movement" (oops, truth movement) case. He's crapping on his father's memory by exonerating those who murdered his father, while simultaneously invoking his name every time the debate goes south. If anything, that's worse than the average truther.

Do you know him that you are sure to call him a liar?
I mean he does not look or act like the usual US-GOV-Hater
from what i saw in the footage.

No, I don't know him, but I do know what he said. On the one hand, he said he just wants people to think for themselves, yet that clearly wasn't the case; he very clearly has beliefs regarding 911 and a government conspiracy, which he wishes to propagate. Its the most common lie among woowoos, to claim that they're simply "questioning." That's a load of crap, that their little puppetmasters plant in their minds as a means of deflecting the criticism they'll inevitably face. Maybe they're too stupid to even know they're lying (or confused in their own minds), but it's a lie nonetheless. I refuse to give people the benefit of the doubt because they're too weak-minded to be honest with themselves.

If he just feels unsure i can understand that he´s deeply
yearning for truth. Same goes to the Jersey Girls from what
i know. The lazy and late investigation did stink.

The government could have avoided a lot of questions if
they spend more attention to the issue immediately after
the attacks. Instead they acted like someone who has
something to hide. Wrong?

No amount of investigation would have so much as an iota of effect on the 911 bowel movement. These people are impervious to reason, as anyone who has debated them knows.

 

[Oliver]

No, I don't know him, but I do know what he said. On the one hand, he said he just wants people to think for themselves, yet that clearly wasn't the case; he very clearly has beliefs regarding 911 and a government conspiracy, which he wishes to propagate. Its the most common lie among woowoos, to claim that they're simply "questioning." That's a load of crap, that their little puppetmasters plant in their minds as a means of deflecting the criticism they'll inevitably face. Maybe they're too stupid to even know they're lying (or confused in their own minds), but it's a lie nonetheless. I refuse to give people the benefit of the doubt because they're too weak-minded to be honest with themselves.

This seems to be a misunderstanding - i was
talking about liar in terms of his dead father,
not about the usual MIHOP-lie...

No amount of investigation would have so much as an iota of effect on the 911 bowel movement. These people are impervious to reason, as anyone who has debated them knows.

And may i ask who you are?

By the way,
welcome on board.