Gravy at Ground Zero

[Oliver]

I so hate that the conspiracy liars do this at ground zero. It is disrespectful beyond belief to have this BS THERE. Folks may debate the JFK assassination at Dealy Plaza, but they don't do it at Arlington.

These liars seem to forget is ground zero is a grave site.

So you think that >any< discussion on holy ground
should be avoided - no matter if PRO or CONTRA?

 

[Alt+F4]

So you think that >any< discussion on holy ground
should be avoided - no matter if PRO or CONTRA?

It's not holy ground, it's a cemetary. I understand what Gravy is trying to do, and I appreciate his effort. However, find me another place on earth where people yell politics and conspiracy theory a mere few feet from where thousands were murdered.

Like Gravy, I'm a New Yorker and I've always been of the belief that NOTHING (especially that ugly**s Freedom Tower) should be built on that site. The Arizona, Gettysburg were left to the dead where they fell, why not Ground Zero?

 

[Oliver]

It's not holy ground, it's a cemetary. I understand what Gravy is trying to do, and I appreciate his effort. However, find me another place on earth where people yell politics and conspiracy theory a mere few feet from where thousands were murdered.

Like Gravy, I'm a New Yorker and I've always been of the belief that NOTHING (especially that ugly**s Freedom Tower) should be built on that site. The Arizona, Gettysburg were left to dead where they fell, why not Ground Zero?

I thought there were several polls about what should
have done with ground zero and which kind of memorial
should build above it. But i agree - in my opinion this place
should be a park with some kind of memorial where the
buildings stood.

 

[Anti-sophist]

Keeping calm must be hard. I don't understand how you don't lose your cool.

That being said, I'd love to go down there once and mix it up with them. The main problem is it would ruin my emotional state to do it often. I'd just be mad constantly.

 

[The Almond]

Keeping calm must be hard. I don't understand how you don't lose your cool.

That being said, I'd love to go down there once and mix it up with them. The main problem is it would ruin my emotional state to do it often. I'd just be mad constantly.

I, too, appreciate what Gravy is doing. It's a thankless job, but the truthers need to be kept in check. I think it's better to think of Gravy as providing a counter-point to truther ramblings, rather than trying to argue them into changing their minds. Getting mad might be part of the wrong mindset on this matter. If you're arguing to change minds, you'll get frustrated and angry. If you're arguing to present the truth to the ignorant, the opposing side is simply providing impetus, and you can't get angry about that.

Something I've learned in my short time on these forums is that people who engage in discourse fall into two distinct groups:
1) Those who believe, like Socrates, that logical and intelligent discourse can lead to a mutual discovery of the truth, and
2) Those who believe that the other person is wrong and are willing to provide 100 reasons for it.

It seems to me that most truthers and some skeptics fall into the second category, but that Gravy, Maccy and yourself fall into the first group. It follows, then, that those in the first group demand a type of logical consistency in their arguments that can only be achieved through scrutiny and criticism. Simply put, you can't argue with a truther because the logical consistency you'll present has not been shown to exist in any truther argument or person. Dylan Avery is more interested in producing evidence than he is in interpreting it logically.

The bottom line is don't get mad at the truthers, and don't let their lies ruin your sound reasoning. Take a little bit of Zen and realize if they weren't so darn stupid, your job would be harder and more frustrating, their views would be more mainstream, we'd have our work really cut out for us.

 

[Trigood]

I love how Gravy doesn't let those idjuts make him sink to their level... although I did appreciate his use of the word "a*****e" [rule8] for that one guy. But he doesn't go overboard and get all emotional, like I probably would. Like Almond says, you can't really argue with these people... they're operating on another plane (no pun intended) of reality altogether.

Watching this happen at Ground Zero is sort of sad but so American. I just cannot help thinking how stupid it all is. I mean, there are issues to discuss -- why the buildings were constructed as they were, without fireproof stairs; how to improve the fire/police communications so a similar death toll doesn't happen again; etc. etc. But whether the government carried this out? Come on! So ridiculous.

Thanks Gravy and someday I hope to shake your hand at GZ.

 

[WildCat]

Why did that doofus troofer have to wear a hat w/ White Sox logos on it...

 

[Anti-sophist]

1) Those who believe, like Socrates, that logical and intelligent discourse can lead to a mutual discovery of the truth, and
2) Those who believe that the other person is wrong and are willing to provide 100 reasons for it.

It seems to me that most truthers and some skeptics fall into the second category, but that Gravy, Maccy and yourself fall into the first group.

The Socrates allusion is apt on so very many levels.

[SIZE=-1]Socrates was an arch anti-sophist, challenging the basis for many of their pronouncements through dialogue and rigorous, sustained questioning.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...ist&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=firefox-a
[/SIZE]

 

[hellaeon]

I think its not too hard for gravy to keep calm because he has the facts at his disposal and knows his stuff. These guys loose their cool because they run out of things to spout.
I would have trouble trying to argue with them in the flesh if they brought up specific stuff. More so I could argue the basic level of things just based on common sense and logic. (eg: people involved and no whistle blowers? dynamite in concrete? Star wars beam weapons floating in space without detection?). The heavier stuff would fall under that annoying banner they live on. Asking a question you cant answer means 'they win' or what have you.

That said I had a debate in a forum a few months back and the guy pretty much recycled the same crap over and over so it was pretty easy to whip him with some of the information I had gathered here. But I had my pc on hand...easier then in person....

 

[Bell]

"Our" Sentinel was on this footage as well? Who is it?

Somewhere in the beginning. He's the guy with the two bags over his shoulder and a black jacket with the American flag on the arms. He's in the movie for a short time, and talks about him being there and carying a scanner, and then walks out of the picture.

 

[LashL]

Wow - I'm surprised that the tinhatters posted that video. Gravy does an incredibly good job, as always; my surprise is only that the tinhatters are too stupid to realize that and too stupid to realize how pathetic they look throughout the video

 

[Trigood]

Wow - I'm surprised that the tinhatters posted that video. Gravy does an incredibly good job, as always; my surprise is only that the tinhatters are too stupid to realize that and too stupid to realize how pathetic they look throughout the video

Totally!

What I thought was funny was how the troofers with the two banners kept maneuvering back and forth in back of that TV anchorman talking about the Freedom tower. It was hilarious! Like watching a Monty Python movie!
-- Let's get into this picture, John.
-- OK Peter, let's see, I think it's best over to the right here.
-- No, no, John, over to the left.
-- No, no! Come on! Over to the right is better!
-- But Betty with her sign is going to the left, let's follow her!

It was hilarious. And how the newsman called them a name they deserved.

Seeing Gravy there made me feel so proud! YEAH Gravy!!! Those idiots aren't getting away with this without contest.

I find this all so bizarro. I mean, people actually listening to these idiots, spouting gibberish. Then, when people actually protest the war itself, they get treated like this: assaulted, arrested, manhandled, hand-cuffed and held overnight in jail with no charges. (This is that guy who self-immolated in Chicago a couple weeks ago to protest the war.)

 

[pgwenthold]

I think its not too hard for gravy to keep calm because he has the facts at his disposal and knows his stuff. These guys loose their cool because they run out of things to spout.
I would have trouble trying to argue with them in the flesh if they brought up specific stuff. More so I could argue the basic level of things just based on common sense and logic. (eg: people involved and no whistle blowers? dynamite in concrete? Star wars beam weapons floating in space without detection?). The heavier stuff would fall under that annoying banner they live on. Asking a question you cant answer means 'they win' or what have you.

A lot of that can be handled by forcing them to explain it more in depth. They always criticize the NIST report for example because it doesn't account for enough of the tiny little details (please - they are supposed to model the entire collapse of a 100 story building, and account for every little dust speck?). Make them explain why what they say accounts for what is observed.

A good example is the claim about molten metal after X weeks. Since fires can't account for it, it must be thermite. Even if you don't know how fires can account for it, turn that around, and make them explain how thermite does. Does thermite generate enough heat to keep metal molten for weeks? They don't know the answer to that (and the answer is no, thermite goes quickly). But even if you don't know, they can't explain how thermite could produce molten metal over a long period of time.

 

[Brainster]

I think its not too hard for gravy to keep calm because he has the facts at his disposal and knows his stuff. These guys loose their cool because they run out of things to spout.

Exactly. This is why guys like O'Reilly and Hannity mostly resort to the "You're a kook!" school of debating when they have a Fetzer or a Barrett on the show with them.

 

[T.A.M.]

I liken the truthers at GZ to snake oil salesmen, and Gravy is the guy standing next to their cart shouting...

"These guys are frauds, and here is why."

Make no wonder they get upset...lol

TAM

 

[Bell]

Totally!

What I thought was funny was how the troofers with the two banners kept maneuvering back and forth in back of that TV anchorman talking about the Freedom tower. It was hilarious! Like watching a Monty Python movie!
-- Let's get into this picture, John.
-- OK Peter, let's see, I think it's best over to the right here.
-- No, no, John, over to the left.
-- No, no! Come on! Over to the right is better!
-- But Betty with her sign is going to the left, let's follow her!

It was hilarious. And how the newsman called them a name they deserved.

That piece was indeed hillarious, worthy of a Terry Gilliam cartoon.

But why the nutters posted it? Beats me. Seems like they are incapable of learning, since the exact same thing happened with the LC vanity video about 2 months ago.

 

[uk_dave]

That piece was indeed hillarious, worthy of a Terry Gilliam cartoon.

But why the nutters posted it? Beats me. Seems like they are incapable of learning, since the exact same thing happened with the LC vanity video about 2 months ago.

Just another sign of delusion.

They see conspiracy where none exists

They see a video which promotes their cause when it actually does the complete opposite.

 

[Spins]

These two comments about Gravy made me laugh...

I'm just reading John Marks' "The Search for the Manchurian Candidate - the CIA and Mind Control, the secret history of the Behavioural Sciences".
is this guy an example of the MKULTRA programme?

I think it's far from an established fact that such programs are still operating today, but they might be, and if they are, it can only be supposed that their efficacy has advanced. I think some form of manipulation of already unstable people may be the best explanation for some of the shill stuff that goes on here and elsewhere. (if nothing else, it's probably more cost effective.)

"OBEY MY DOG!"​

​

 

[Oliver]

What I thought was funny was how the troofers with the two banners kept maneuvering back and forth in back of that TV anchorman talking about the Freedom tower. It was hilarious! Like watching a Monty Python movie!
-- Let's get into this picture, John.
-- OK Peter, let's see, I think it's best over to the right here.
-- No, no, John, over to the left.
-- No, no! Come on! Over to the right is better!
-- But Betty with her sign is going to the left, let's follow her!

"Do you think their camera is pointing to our Banner now?"
"I get clue."
"I get a clue, too."
"My clue is pointing to the left."
"My clue is pointing to the right and it´s huuuge."
"Okay, let´s follow your clue."

 

[Oliver]

BTW: Where is Gravy? He missed to answer
but i guess he´s lurking with a loupe.