Gratitude, Compulsion, Idiocy or Nobility?

[JayUtah]

I have no resistance or issue to suggest or oeach Jainism because it is something different. But I am just taking true religion from it. Do not be stubborn or otherwises.

Your critics are not idiots. They can see that you're obviously preaching Jainism. Jainism is the only specific religion you've advocated. It's the specific religion that matches what you're trying to preach as some sort of universal or obviously true religion. You're trying to downplay all this because you don't want it generally believed that you're simply engaged in sectarian proselyting.

 

[JayUtah]

No, that is A&F so need no evidence.

No, you need evidence. Provide it now, please, or retract your claims.

but I have told additional type of seed dispersal specific to humans.

I addressed this. Do not simply repeat your claim.

Read "endozoochory" which I mentioned previously.

Endozoochory is the dispersal of seeds by ingestion and subsequent defecation by animals. It has nothing to do with what you propose as the "natural" method of picking the seeds and consuming the pulp yourself.

 

[Kumar]

How very simplistic a view. We also plant them in very large orchards that could not exist naturally without our care, and we breed species that wouldn't otherwise exist. Once again you simply cherry-pick the observations. You're proposing the Luddite view without answering the species survival factor questions.



You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're telling me that it's natural to pick seeds and consume the pulp yourself, but also that humans are the only ones that do it. Humans are also the only ones who cultivate plants in great quantities, far beyond that which is possible without their aid.

That is not obligation on nature but an unnatural compensation to nature due to what you have taken from nature.

Already addressed. The "maturity" of the seed is not the question. The question is whether your practice is what nature does.

But you raised issue that fruit pulp is meant for nutrient od seeds not for seed dispersal.

If you're trying to tell me that you do indeed pass seeds in your stool, then I'm going to point out that you changed your story. Earlier you told us that you picked the seeds out of the fruit, ate the fruit yourself, and then cast the seeds away to fend for themselves. Now after you have learned what really happens in nature, you're trying to tell us that's what you do instead.

That was an additional type fro seed dispersal specific to humans. That do not mean, endozoochory is non existent.

 

[Kumar]

Your critics are not idiots. They can see that you're obviously preaching Jainism. Jainism is the only specific religion you've advocated. It's the specific religion that matches what you're trying to preach as some sort of universal or obviously true religion. You're trying to downplay all this because you don't want it generally believed that you're simply engaged in sectarian proselyting.

Sorry, they who think it, seems to be idiot, stubborn and irrational egoistic skeptics.

 

[JayUtah]

That is not obligation on nature but an unnatural compensation to nature due to what you have taken from nature.

No. Your notion of what is natural and unnatural comes from your religious inculcation and has nothing to do with what is actually natural. You draw an arbitrary distinction in human activity and declare some of it natural and some of it unnatural. Your made-up criteria simply don't matter.

But you raised issue that fruit pulp is meant for nutrient od seeds not for seed dispersal.

I raised both issues of nourishing seeds -- directly by the decomposition of the pulp and indirectly by the defecation of animals that have ingested seeds. Neither of those supports your proposed activity.

That was an additional type fro seed dispersal specific to humans. That do not mean, endozoochory is non existent.

Your claim was that the method you propose for humans is modeled elsewhere in nature. it clearly is not.

 

[JayUtah]

Sorry, they who think it, seems to be idiot, stubborn and irrational egoistic skeptics.

And you're back to insulting your critics. You are not a very good Jain.

 

[Kumar]

No, you need evidence. Provide it now, please, or retract your claims.



I addressed this. Do not simply repeat your claim.



Endozoochory is the dispersal of seeds by ingestion and subsequent defecation by animals. It has nothing to do with what you propose as the "natural" method of picking the seeds and consuming the pulp yourself.

Ok, non-A&F evidence: I am my family and other people known to me are following it, intentionally or intentionally. All humans who are eating fruits having bigger seeds are also following this type of seed dispersal. Although, it is A&F evidence, still you can consider it non A&F, which people here hadalready anticipated/accepted.

 

[bruto]

Kumar, aside from the issues Jay Utah raises with regard to seed propagation, it seems germane to ask what percentage of the world population do you feel it is appropriate to starve to death to further your vision of bucolic paradise. Because starve they will. There are billions of people on this planet, and your proposed way of life is that of a small and elite peasantry.

I am all in favor of trying harder to live modestly, sustainably, and humanely, but a responsible person should realize that this is a proposal for one's own behavior, not a valid formula for the world at large. It would be a strange and sinister sort of god, I think, that would smile on your kindness to carrots and not worry about whether Hong Kong is wiped off the earth.

 

[Kumar]

And you're back to insulting your critics. You are not a very good Jain.

Not insulting by reciprocating to your post. Get what you give. Reap what you sow. First who give is only responsible to get.. Atleast I used "Sorry".

 

[JayUtah]

Ok, non-A&F evidence: I am my family and other people known to me are following it, intentionally or intentionally. All humans who are eating fruits having bigger seeds are also following this type of seed dispersal. Although, it is A&F evidence, still you can consider it non A&F, which people here hadalready anticipated/accepted.

First, you provided an anecdote, not evidence. Second, you were supposed to be providing evidence that the human way of picking seeds and consuming the pulp was a pattern found elsewhere in nature. Claims that the humans you know do what you say humans do does not provide relevant evidence, even if believed.

 

[JayUtah]

Not insulting by reciprocating to your post. Get what you give. Reap what you sow. First who give is only responsible to get.. Atleast I used "Sorry".

No, it is not your critics' fault that you resort to insults when you are cornered. Do not blame your critics for your failure. What does Jainism say about hypocrisy?

 

[Kumar]

Kumar, aside from the issues Jay Utah raises with regard to seed propagation, it seems germane to ask what percentage of the world population do you feel it is appropriate to starve to death to further your vision of bucolic paradise. Because starve they will. There are billions of people on this planet, and your proposed way of life is that of a small and elite peasantry.

I am all in favor of trying harder to live modestly, sustainably, and humanely, but a responsible person should realize that this is a proposal for one's own behavior, not a valid formula for the world at large. It would be a strange and sinister sort of god, I think, that would smile on your kindness to carrots and not worry about whether Hong Kong is wiped off the earth.

Either talk truth or rational or practical or need due to our created odds or greed or natural or social .... You need to talk one at one time.. Avoid mixing. Just now I am talking, truth & natural.

 

[bruto]

Ok, non-A&F evidence: I am my family and other people known to me are following it, intentionally or intentionally. All humans who are eating fruits having bigger seeds are also following this type of seed dispersal. Although, it is A&F evidence, still you can consider it non A&F, which people here hadalready anticipated/accepted.

It is not any kind of useful "A&F" to disperse the seeds. If you think so you're fooling yourself with more pie in the sky. Sure, you can disperse the seeds. What you need to do is to insure that the seeds produce healthy plants that produce edible fruit for continuing generations, and that the resulting fruits can get to the people who need to eat them. It does not matter how many apple trees you plant if nobody can eat the apples. It does not matter how many peach trees you plant if the resulting trees are sickly and spindly and take ten years to set a fruit. It does not matter how many wild guava trees drop their delicious fruit on the back roads of Hawaii if nobody can pick them and process them and ship them.

 

[JayUtah]

Either talk truth or rational or practical or need due to our created odds or greed or natural or social .... You need to talk one at one time.. Avoid mixing. Just now I am talking, truth & natural.

No, as long as you are posting on a public forum you know to be inhabited by skeptics, you are responsible for addressing all critics. If you want a favorable audience, go find a forum for Jains or other dharmic religions.

Your proposed food and dietary policy is not scalable. The existing population of the world requires a scalable food supply. Humans, with their well-developed intelligence, have become adept and ensuring a food supply using economies of scale. Your uneducated opinion that this is somehow "unnatural" simply does not matter. Your indifference to the problems your religiously motivated proposal would cause is unconscionable.

 

[bruto]

Either talk truth or rational or practical or need due to our created odds or greed or natural or social .... You need to talk one at one time.. Avoid mixing. Just now I am talking, truth & natural.

If you can't answer a question, don't answer it, but don't tell me what to say. It is a truth, I believe, that the fool's paradise you seem to envision will almost certainly starve billions of people. That seems pertinent whether or not it floats your rudderless craft.

 

[abaddon]

Either talk truth or rational or practical or need due to our created odds or greed or natural or social .... You need to talk one at one time.. Avoid mixing. Just now I am talking, truth & natural.

Why is it that you are diabetic? Should not your "natural" Jain practices have prevented that from ever happening? Should your Jain practices not cure that?

 

[Mojo]

Ok, non-A&F evidence: I am my family and other people known to me are following it, intentionally or intentionally. All humans who are eating fruits having bigger seeds are also following this type of seed dispersal. Although, it is A&F evidence, still you can consider it non A&F, which people here hadalready anticipated/accepted.

No, that's just evidence that they do it. It doesn't support your claims about the purported benefits of the practice.

 

[Kumar]

It is not any kind of useful "A&F" to disperse the seeds. If you think so you're fooling yourself with more pie in the sky. Sure, you can disperse the seeds. What you need to do is to insure that the seeds produce healthy plants that produce edible fruit for continuing generations, and that the resulting fruits can get to the people who need to eat them. It does not matter how many apple trees you plant if nobody can eat the apples. It does not matter how many peach trees you plant if the resulting trees are sickly and spindly and take ten years to set a fruit. It does not matter how many wild guava trees drop their delicious fruit on the back roads of Hawaii if nobody can pick them and process them and ship them.

I just do my natural duty. Rest I leave on nature. I have not to do it consuciously, as nature can take its own recource but since we are insulting it, I need to compensate it.

 

[Kumar]

If you can't answer a question, don't answer it, but don't tell me what to say. It is a truth, I believe, that the fool's paradise you seem to envision will almost certainly starve billions of people. That seems pertinent whether or not it floats your rudderless craft.

One can awnser relative to any of above. We cant talk one on one side other on other side on same topic at same time. Now, as I am talking about truth and natural, pls limit to these.

 

[Kumar]

Why is it that you are diabetic? Should not your "natural" Jain practices have prevented that from ever happening? Should your Jain practices not cure that?

Because I could niether follow true religion nor naturality due to predispositions and social odds.