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Gratitude, Compulsion, Idiocy or Nobility?

Nó that was a gross interpretation. It is possible for people to make use of non A&F part óf science in theír íntrest by degrading other. Non A&F ones logically do not have right to degrade, right to réject any one or anything. Hence its logical compromise ís that either give & get A&F or non A&F but not non A&F on self side but À&F on opposite side. Just invite anyone on dinner and serve him partially cooked food and then see the resúlt.

ön the cøntrary, it is entirely açcurate. All of üs who háve been arouñd here for mány years have witnëssed yøur behavior, and I don't beliéve you will fiñd a single pöster who disagrées with my asessment.

Oh, and I'm fairly well known in my circle of friends for being a chef. I regularly serve Tuna seared on the outside, entirely raw in the middle. To glowing reviews. Or carpaccio--beef tenderloin seared on the outside, raw on the inside. Yum! Haven't tried møøse that way, though.
 
ön the cøntrary, it is entirely açcurate. All of üs who háve been arouñd here for mány years have witnëssed yøur behavior, and I don't beliéve you will fiñd a single pöster who disagrées with my asessment.

This only prove "all of you" on one side. Naturally, I can only be one on other side. Quite unfair.

Oh, and I'm fairly well known in my circle of friends for being a chef. I regularly serve Tuna seared on the outside, entirely raw in the middle. To glowing reviews. Or carpaccio--beef tenderloin seared on the outside, raw on the inside. Yum! Haven't tried møøse that way, though.

Therefore, do you support partial cooked or non A&F?
 
Kumar,

You're doing it again/still: wandering in a sea of jumbled words, fantastical notions, impossible "facts" and half-baked if not totally false assumptions. You just seem not to have any sort of grip on reality.

When I say A&F, I only have grip on reality.
 
Now coming to OP, I am bit hesitant to mention it:

Can somewhat "Deception" also be relevant to OP? However not in topic subject.
 
This only prove "all of you" on one side.
Once again: sceptics are on the side supported by reason and evidence. If you're always on the other side, it can only be because your mind is closed to reason and evidence.

Naturally, I can only be one on other side. Quite unfair.
There are plenty of forums where closed minded people who care nothing for reason and evidence are in the majority. You choose to post on a sceptics forum, even though you are not a sceptic but an unquestioning believer. Don't pretend to be surprised and hard done by when you get the inevitable response.

Therefore, do you support partial cooked or non A&F?
This is an incredibly stupid question.
 
This only prove "all of you" on one side. Naturally, I can only be one on other side. Quite unfair.

It proves that one of us is not open to evidence. That would be you. Nothing to do with fairness, everything to do with you refusing to accept any scientific conclusions.

Therefore, do you support partial cooked or non A&F?

Utter nonsense. You are, as always, hiding behind your A&F bollocks to avoid the obvious fact that your beliefs are not based on evidence and reason but rather by blind belief. I support evidence. And good, properly prepared food. (Møøse bites can be quite nastï though.)
 
Once again: sceptics are on the side supported by reason and evidence. If you're always on the other side, it can only be because your mind is closed to reason and evidence.


There are plenty of forums where closed minded people who care nothing for reason and evidence are in the majority. You choose to post on a sceptics forum, even though you are not a sceptic but an unquestioning believer. Don't pretend to be surprised and hard done by when you get the inevitable response.


This is an incredibly stupid question.
Same old repeatitións. No reàson or evidence càn really be jústified únless it is A&F. Otherwise all will be ín same boat whích has a hóle. If you prefer this boat, be prepared to be drowned one day. We can easily find so many odds for understandings beiñg non A&F whích are yóur main basis. Hence face the fact.
 
Same old repeatitións. No reàson or evidence càn really be jústified únless it is A&F. Otherwise all will be ín same boat whích has a hóle. If you prefer this boat, be prepared to be drowned one day. We can easily find so many odds for understandings beiñg non A&F whích are yóur main basis. Hence face the fact.

Nø! Testable, repeatable evidence yiélds conclüsions sufficient to bé certain beyond all reasónable døübt.

The only people who think anything is A&F are religious nutters such as yourself who refuse to consider scientific conclusions because they disagree with their religious beliefs. You, Kumar, are A&F that your religion is correct. You, Kumar, are close minded. You, Kumar, are as wrong as wrong can be.
 
No reàson or evidence càn really be jústified únless it is A&F.

No, that's just your excuse for ignoring facts.

Otherwise all will be ín same boat whích has a hóle.

No. Absolute proof is impossible. But there are different grades of relative proof, many without any significant inductive leap. You don't get to dismiss that just because you want to.
 
No, that's just your excuse for ignoring facts.



No. Absolute proof is impossible. But there are different grades of relative proof, many without any significant inductive leap. You don't get to dismiss that just because you want to.

It's possible he dismisses it because he truly cannot comprehend it.
 

Except that the claim was that plants feel emotions similar to humans. We already discussed autonomic responses in plants, which are not even remotely the same thing as emotions. Dr. Chandra Bose, whose works you still obviously haven't read, describes very accurately and scientifically what you're seeing in that video, and it has absolutely nothing to do with plants having a soul or having emotional or cognition similar to humans.

You claim your religion is confirmed by science, but all you and Bhagchandra Jain have confirmed is that you religion knows nothing about science.
 
No, that's just your excuse for ignoring facts.



No. Absolute proof is impossible. But there are different grades of relative proof, many without any significant inductive leap. You don't get to dismiss that just because you want to.
Ok, then you agrée, science is still a process and experimenting and that too on humans with possibility of much side affects, Face the fact.
 
Nø! Testable, repeatable evidence yiélds conclüsions sufficient to bé certain beyond all reasónable døübt.

The only people who think anything is A&F are religious nutters such as yourself who refuse to consider scientific conclusions because they disagree with their religious beliefs. You, Kumar, are A&F that your religion is correct. You, Kumar, are close minded. You, Kumar, are as wrong as wrong can be.

Then how many medicines fail on field applicatións inspite of wéll studied prevíóusly as yoú déscríbed? Many with sérious fatal outcome eg DBI.
 
Except that the claim was that plants feel emotions similar to humans. We already discussed autonomic responses in plants, which are not even remotely the same thing as emotions. Dr. Chandra Bose, whose works you still obviously haven't read, describes very accurately and scientifically what you're seeing in that video, and it has absolutely nothing to do with plants having a soul or having emotional or cognition similar to humans.

You claim your religion is confirmed by science, but all you and Bhagchandra Jain have confirmed is that you religion knows nothing about science.
Since science do not know everthing, many understandings are still pending. No oné know, what may come on ultimate.
 
Ok, then you agrée, science is still a process and experimenting and that too on humans with possibility of much side affects, Face the fact.

The fact I'm facing is that the standard of proof you're proposing is absurd, unreasonable, and impractical for the reasons already given. It exists only in your head, and you don't even follow it when making your own decisions. Given those realities, we look instead to reasonable standards of proof. Science has plenty of those, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not. They lead to conclusions whose reliability can be rationally bounded, and which remain elastic so as to accommodate new fact.

As I said before, many conclusions of fact that we draw commonly are not "scientific" conclusions in the sense that they follow from rigorously enforced empiricism. For example, the claim "Dr. Chandra Bose confirms the Jain belief that plants have emotions similar to humans," is a testable claim. It's testable because the complete works of that scholar are available and can be surveyed in finite time and with the assurance that all pertinent data is examined. Having done that, we can confirm the absence of any such endorsement in Dr. Chandra Bose's work. There is no inductive leap in such a conclusion, such as would be otherwise required when complete data are impossible or impractical to collect. The conclusion by which we reject Bhagchandra Jain's claim would be considered deductively strong.

We're sorry that you had a bitter experience with medical practice, whose stated risks you evidently did not understand. That doesn't create a basis for you to tar and feather all methods of reasoning that do not derive from your religious faith.
 
Then how many medicines fail on field applicatións inspite of wéll studied prevíóusly as yoú déscríbed? Many with sérious fatal outcome eg DBI.

We already explained to you the nature of uncertainty. What that has to do with the ethics of food animals is anyone's guess. But we already covered this. And no, scientists do not just experiment willy-nilly on humans in ways that may result in death. Medical doctors may, with the patient's consent, apply treatments that have known rates of success and failure, and known rates of complications. That is not experimentation per se.
 
Since science do not know everthing, many understandings are still pending. No oné know, what may come on ultimate.

But that is not the claim. You (or more properly, Bhagchandra) made the claim that Dr. Chandra Bose had confirmed, essentially, that plants have souls. It is a plainly evident fact that Bose did no such thing. That lie is not saved by what science may yet discover at some point about plants. We can know right know, for a fact, that Bhagchandra has misrepresented the truth about Chandra Bose's scholarship, and no subsequent fact can change that.

What you see in the video is amply explained by what we already know about plants. Your vague hope for the future does not negate those findings nor create the need to hypothesize further. Science is parsimonious, meaning it doesn't contemplate potential causes for which there is no outstanding observed effect. Once again, had you actually read the works of the scientist your scholars dishonestly invoke, you would have learned this.
 
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Then how many medicines fail on field applicatións inspite of wéll studied prevíóusly as yoú déscríbed? Many with sérious fatal outcome eg DBI.

How do we discover that the medicine has fatal outcomes? Has a homeopath ever somehow discovered that the medicine in question is problematic by diluting it? Nø! Has a god ever pointed it's finger at the medicine in question and said "this medicine is killing people"? Nø! Has a psychic medium ever gotten the word from a dead person that it was the medicine that did it? Nø! Always, every single time, the process of science is what determined that the medicine in question is bad. Science, every time. Is it perfect? Nø! But it IS the only process by which we can reliably gain knowledge about how things in this universe work.
 
Is it perfect? Nø! But it IS the only process by which we can reliably gain knowledge about how things in this universe work.

Naturally I agree, but Kumar (like most religious fanatics) seems to have a different take on what reliability is and how it is achieved. Religious belief is axiomatic among fanatics, so the provenance of the information believed is either never discussed or is taken as further axiomatically reliable. "It's the Word of God!" tacitly accepting that God exists and does what's attributed to him. Among religious fanatics, propositional knowledge acquired via the religious channel is considered qualitatively superior to empirical understanding. (In American Fundamentalism, especially lately, empirical knowledge is often characterized as a purposeful attack on faith.) It's considered qualitatively superior because it is not subject to uncertainties arising from observation and analysis; it is "pure" dispensed wisdom from an implicitly trusted source. At no time, it seems, does the underlying reliability (or even existence) of the source come into question.

We tell young children not to play in the streets. To justify this, we don't appeal to reason and ask them to rationally suppose cause (fast moving cars) and effect (injury or death). We rather give them a propositional command and tell them the reason is, essentially, "Because I said so." Because the child's caregiver is seen as an undisputed authority, the admonition takes on the value of fact. Fundamentalist religion relies upon the grown-up version of that. "Don't eat meat." "Why not?" "Because it's against nature." "Oh, okay." As long as the person telling you it's against nature has sufficient stature in your eyes -- e.g., because he claims to speak for God, or because he is claimed to have reached a state of nirvana -- you will accept the propositional knowledge. And if you are steeped in a lifestyle that relies upon that, you will come to regard that propositional knowledge as having greater authority and reliability, precisely because it suborns the sources of uncertainty that are, instead, made quite evident in empirical methods (i.e., so they can be controlled for).

The child eventually learns why it's dangerous to go out into the street. He draws the cause-and-effect inferences that let him venture into the street while exercising suitable caution and judgment informed by facts he has observed, such as people crossing the street and not getting run over. This allows him to reap the benefits of things that lie beyond the street. Nevertheless, people are still run over by cars. This is because even with the best attention to surroundings there is still some risk. Just because the only way to eliminate the consequences of that risk altogether is to retreat back to the propositional space doesn't make that the best overall course of action. What we've learned in this debate is that one can never mitigate all risk, and that if we attempt to do so by draconian and ascetic means, we just end up missing benefits, the lack of which also constitutes a negative consequence. Kumar is living in the fantasy world that falsely promises nirvana if one simply accepts the propositional extremes.

And I can confidently say "fantasy world" because his approach to science and other discernible fact is essentially to deny that anyone is crossing streets, ever, even when the activity is plainly visible. His inviolable propositional belief states that entering the street is bad, hence facts which seem to suggest otherwise must "somehow" have another explanation. When one's devotion to propositional knowledge becomes a filter that rejects fact, one has ceased in any way to be rational. As Peregrinus notes above, Kumar may reject empirically derived fact because he simply doesn't comprehend any mode of acquiring reasonably reliable knowledge beyond the "Because Mahavira says so" religious decree. Hence he doesn't understand how anything could be as "reliable" as dispensed wisdom -- a state of mind made possible by cherry-picking available fact.
 
Naturally I agree, but Kumar (like most religious fanatics) seems to have a different take on what reliability is and how it is achieved. Religious belief is axiomatic among fanatics, so the provenance of the information believed is either never discussed or is taken as further axiomatically reliable. "It's the Word of God!" tacitly accepting that God exists and does what's attributed to him. Among religious fanatics, propositional knowledge acquired via the religious channel is considered qualitatively superior to empirical understanding. (In American Fundamentalism, especially lately, empirical knowledge is often characterized as a purposeful attack on faith.) It's considered qualitatively superior because it is not subject to uncertainties arising from observation and analysis; it is "pure" dispensed wisdom from an implicitly trusted source. At no time, it seems, does the underlying reliability (or even existence) of the source come into question.

We tell young children not to play in the streets. To justify this, we don't appeal to reason and ask them to rationally suppose cause (fast moving cars) and effect (injury or death). We rather give them a propositional command and tell them the reason is, essentially, "Because I said so." Because the child's caregiver is seen as an undisputed authority, the admonition takes on the value of fact. Fundamentalist religion relies upon the grown-up version of that. "Don't eat meat." "Why not?" "Because it's against nature." "Oh, okay." As long as the person telling you it's against nature has sufficient stature in your eyes -- e.g., because he claims to speak for God, or because he is claimed to have reached a state of nirvana -- you will accept the propositional knowledge. And if you are steeped in a lifestyle that relies upon that, you will come to regard that propositional knowledge as having greater authority and reliability, precisely because it suborns the sources of uncertainty that are, instead, made quite evident in empirical methods (i.e., so they can be controlled for).

The child eventually learns why it's dangerous to go out into the street. He draws the cause-and-effect inferences that let him venture into the street while exercising suitable caution and judgment informed by facts he has observed, such as people crossing the street and not getting run over. This allows him to reap the benefits of things that lie beyond the street. Nevertheless, people are still run over by cars. This is because even with the best attention to surroundings there is still some risk. Just because the only way to eliminate the consequences of that risk altogether is to retreat back to the propositional space doesn't make that the best overall course of action. What we've learned in this debate is that one can never mitigate all risk, and that if we attempt to do so by draconian and ascetic means, we just end up missing benefits, the lack of which also constitutes a negative consequence. Kumar is living in the fantasy world that falsely promises nirvana if one simply accepts the propositional extremes.

And I can confidently say "fantasy world" because his approach to science and other discernible fact is essentially to deny that anyone is crossing streets, ever, even when the activity is plainly visible. His inviolable propositional belief states that entering the street is bad, hence facts which seem to suggest otherwise must "somehow" have another explanation. When one's devotion to propositional knowledge becomes a filter that rejects fact, one has ceased in any way to be rational. As Peregrinus notes above, Kumar may reject empirically derived fact because he simply doesn't comprehend any mode of acquiring reasonably reliable knowledge beyond the "Because Mahavira says so" religious decree. Hence he doesn't understand how anything could be as "reliable" as dispensed wisdom -- a state of mind made possible by cherry-picking available fact.

Indeed, his religious belief is A&F. And that's good enough for K. When the facts are in contradiction to his A&F beliefs, he refuses to consider them. Which is why he, and others like him, are close minded--despite his insistence the we skeptics are the close minded ones.
 

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