Graffiti problem? No Spray Paint For You!

[HarryKeogh]

I could understand not selling to kids under 18 but this seems like such a drastic action. Banning something altogether (at least to the general public) to curb the actions of a small percentage of buyers seems like such a knee-jerk reaction.

Actually, the only time I remember buying spray paint was when I was under 18 (for legitimate reasons...painting model cars. Geeky sure, but legit). But it bugs me that if I ever needed it today (or if and when this bill passes) I'd have to cross city lines.

"Sorry taxpayer, you're not to be trusted with this, now run along"!

Could still buy a gun though! (not that I'm anti-gun ownership, just find it funny the things people choose to ban to prevent crime and I know there's no constitutional provision protecting spray paint ownership but the whole thing still seems silly)

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/277377p-237426c.html

Bill would draw new
bead on graffiti

BY FRANK LOMBARDI
DAILY NEWS CITY HALL BUREAU

Hoping to put a lid on graffiti vandalism, the City Council's public safety chairman introduced a bill yesterday to ban the sale of spray paint to almost everyone.
Current city law only bars the sale of spray paint to those under 18. But Councilman Peter Vallone Jr. (D-Queens) said it's time to take "more drastic" measures to fight the city's enduring graffiti problem.

The bill he introduced at yesterday's Council session would impose penalties of up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine for selling spray paint to anyone within the city limits. The only exceptions would be for professionals, such as artists and contractors.

Vallone admits the ban would be a pain in the neck for New Yorkers, but he contends the sacrifice would pay off with a marked decrease in spray-painted graffiti.

"Obviously, more needs to be done," he told the Daily News. "Just look around at the graffiti in our neighborhoods."

end quote from article

 

[Lavie Enrose]

Anti-Graffiti Coating repels paint and deters vandals

Finally an Effective Solution for Graffiti

Northridge, CA – February 27, 2004 – SEI Announces world’s first graffiti deterrent coating, SEI Graffiti Proofer Anti-Stick™.

SEI Chemical today announced the release of the world’s most advanced anti-graffiti coating for architectural, commercial and residential applications. The new SEI product called Graffiti Proofer Anti-Stick literally causes graffiti to run off protected surfaces, frustrating the vandals, and making clean-up in most cases as easy as washing a window.

 

[coalesce]

It does seem drastic, but if it somehow achieved the goal of lessening graffiti, then I'm for it. That method worked when the wide-tip markers were taken off the shelves, so it might work for spray paint, although spray paint has many more legitimate uses than the wide-tip markers do. I remember all too well what the trains looked like in the 70s, and I don't want to see that again.

I do think, though, that some of the responsibility of eliminating graffiti must be put on landlords, especially commercial landlords. I've seen here in Brooklyn that when a landlord endeavors to paint over graffiti on their property as soon as it occurs, the taggers get discouraged and move on.

Michael

 

[karl]

Principles aside, will it make a difference? The law only bans selling spray paint to non-professionals. I was under the impression that pretty much all graffiti "artists" already steal their paint cans anyway.

 

[CBL4]

Originally posted by coalesce
It does seem drastic, but if it somehow achieved the goal of lessening graffiti, then I'm for it.

No more drastic than banning junk food to prevent heart attacks.

This is another example of depriving people of the right to use products because a small percentage of people use them improperly.

Did you know that spray paint is actually a very cheap and effective method for painting objects with lots of nooks and crannies? Did you know that I actually us spray paint for metal patio furniture and porch railings? Did you know that my wife used spray paint for my son's Halloween costume? Did you know you can make some cool Christmas decorations with spray paint? Did you know that I never have used spray paint for graffiti?

Do you care?

CBL

Edited for VB error.

 

[Tony]

What's fundamentally wrong with graff?

check out this graffiti website www.woostercollective.com

another: http://www.houstongraffiti.com/albums/

 

[billydkid]

I could understand not selling to kids under 18 but this seems like such a drastic action. Banning something altogether (at least to the general public) to curb the actions of a small percentage of buyers seems like such a knee-jerk reaction.

Actually, the only time I remember buying spray paint was when I was under 18 (for legitimate reasons...painting model cars. Geeky sure, but legit). But it bugs me that if I ever needed it today (or if and when this bill passes) I'd have to cross city lines.

"Sorry taxpayer, you're not to be trusted with this, now run along"!

Could still buy a gun though! (not that I'm anti-gun ownership, just find it funny the things people choose to ban to prevent crime and I know there's no constitutional provision protecting spray paint ownership but the whole thing still seems silly)

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/277377p-237426c.html

Bill would draw new
bead on graffiti

BY FRANK LOMBARDI
DAILY NEWS CITY HALL BUREAU

Hoping to put a lid on graffiti vandalism, the City Council's public safety chairman introduced a bill yesterday to ban the sale of spray paint to almost everyone.
Current city law only bars the sale of spray paint to those under 18. But Councilman Peter Vallone Jr. (D-Queens) said it's time to take "more drastic" measures to fight the city's enduring graffiti problem.

The bill he introduced at yesterday's Council session would impose penalties of up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine for selling spray paint to anyone within the city limits. The only exceptions would be for professionals, such as artists and contractors.

Vallone admits the ban would be a pain in the neck for New Yorkers, but he contends the sacrifice would pay off with a marked decrease in spray-painted graffiti.

"Obviously, more needs to be done," he told the Daily News. "Just look around at the graffiti in our neighborhoods."

end quote from article

Kneejerking is the great American passtime.

 

[Rob Lister]

I could understand not selling to kids under 18 but this seems like such a drastic action. Banning something altogether (at least to the general public) to curb the actions of a small percentage of buyers seems like such a knee-jerk reaction.

.

I agree but would point out that even a small percentage of buyers can do a great deal of harm costing a great deal of money in clean up costs. The solution does lie elsewhere but I can understand the jerkiness of this knee.

It would be nice if all graffiti looked as nice as that pic posted by Tony. Usually it is either ugly and/or vulgar.

 

[coalesce]

No more drastic than banning junk food to prevent heart attacks.

This is another example of depriving people of the right to use products because a small percentage of people use them improperly.

Did you know that spray paint is actually a very cheap and effective method for painting objects with lots of nooks and crannies? Did you know that I actually us spray paint for metal patio furniture and porch railings? Did you know that my wife used spray paint for my son's Halloween costume? Did you know you can make some cool Christmas decorations with spray paint? Did you know that I never have used spray paint for graffiti?

Do you care?

CBL

Edited for VB error.

Well, yes, I am somewhat acquainted with the many uses of spray paint, what with being and homeowner and commercial artist and all. I guess what I wrote in the next sentence after my opening sentence was immaterial to your response, but I digress...

Nonetheless, I am also aware of the damage caused by a small percentage of people who use spray paint improperly. My point was this may be an avenue worth exploring to curb graffiti. If it turns out to be too draconian, then by all means do away with it and think of something else. I thought the parallel to the wide-tip markers was a valid one, and their outright ban here in NYC served its purpose. Again, I point to what the interior of the subways looked like here back in the 1970s and early 1980s. And that was eliminated only when the MTA (the landlord) made a concerted and continuing effort to eliminate grafitti immediately once the subway car or station was vandalized. For those not here in NYC during that time, this is a small example of what it looked like:

http://www.artcrimes.com/trains/trains_4.html

And, yes, I do care, as do you, or else neither of us would be responding. Since you feel that banning spray paint is too severe, may I ask what solution you would offer to help curb or eliminate grafitti?

Thanks!

Michael

 

[Tony]

Re: Re: Graffiti problem? No Spray Paint For You!

.
It would be nice if all graffiti looked as nice as that pic posted by Tony. Usually it is either ugly and/or vulgar.

I agree with that, but I don't think it's fair to condemn graffiti as an art because a lot of it is crap.

 

[Tony]

Since you feel that banning spray paint is too severe, may I ask what solution you would offer to help curb or eliminate grafitti?

Well, I'd see what works in other cities for a start. Ever seen the london subway trains? They are immaculate compared to the ones in New York. Does anyone know what they do in London to keep graffiti out of the tube?

 

[HarryKeogh]

Well, I'd see what works in other cities for a start. Ever seen the london subway trains? They are immaculate compared to the ones in New York. Does anyone know what they do in London to keep graffiti out of the tube?

Actually NY subways aren't that dirty. They are graffiti free (but not "scratchiti" free) and they do a pretty good job cleaning them. But I do agree that the tube is spotless by comparison

And in response to your earlier comment on what is fundamentally wrong with graffiti...some of it blows me away, the level of talent these people have (especially considering the unwieldy medium) but I think the fundamental problem is where the graffiti is usually placed, most often times someone else's property without their permission.

 

[coalesce]

Well, I'd see what works in other cities for a start. Ever seen the london subway trains? They are immaculate compared to the ones in New York. Does anyone know what they do in London to keep graffiti out of the tube?

It's curious that you mention that because that's something I never thought of. Why is it that the Tokyo subway is grafitti-free while it's buildings aren't necessarily so? I remember when I was there in 2002, I was with my wife, my mother and my sister-in-law taking the train from the Narita airport to my sister-in-law's apartment in a Tokyo suburb, a trip lasting about an hour. Whereas the trains were spotless, the sides of some of the buildings and tunnel walls were pretty heavily tagged up, and not at attractively, as some murals can be. The same can be said for the Taipei subway system, except that there wasn't any grafitti in the city or suburbs. Now I know that unlike the New York City subway, the Taipei subway is not open 24 hours a day. I wonder if that also holds true for London and Tokyo.

Michael

 

[CBL4]

coalesce,

I am sick of people taking things away from me because of some mythical societal good. Sometimes I get a little touchy and rant more than I should. I am sorry. I re-read your first post and it still seems extreme to me but I will accept that my bias makes me misread it. Again, I am sorry.

As for a solution, there is no true solution. Some products are used by 99% of the people properly and 1% improperly. We can accept this or punish the innocent. Neither is good. I always prefer freedom but I have learned that this is not a popular view.

I advocate tough sentences for repeat vandals and greater effort made to catch them.

Give me my spray paint, (my pseudofed, my pornography, my hookers, my gambling, my heroin) or give me death.

CBL

 

[Art Vandelay]

What's fundamentally wrong with graff?

Not only is it theft, it is often used by gangs to "stake out territory", and thus constitutes an implicit threat of violence. Often, people who paint over graffiti are assaulted or even killed. Instead of banning spray paint altogether, why not require it to be traceable? Have each can be slightly different, and the police can therefore gather intelligence about graffiti "artists" by analyzing their "artworK'. There should also be more enforcement, and higher penalties. It seems like it would be possible to write a computer program that would continuously moniter surveillence video, and sound an alert if new graffiti is detected. Police officers could be stationed nearby to arrest the perpetrators, and repeat offenders should be charged with a felony.

This, like many law enforcement issues, is a viscious cycle in which the more graffiti there is, the more secure people feel about adding more. Once the police can create a situation in which there is no graffiti, people will know that any new graffiti will be the focus of police investigation, rather than having the current safety of numbers.

In San Francisco, owners are required to paint over graffiti, but that seems like a violation of their rights to me.

 

[WildCat]

Here in the People's Republic of Chicago spray paint has been banned for years. Doesn't seem to inconvenience the gangbangers staking out territory, but it sure makes it a PITA to get it when you need it, you have to go to the burbs. Idiotic if you ask me.

The best idea the city has had to date are the graffitti blaster trucks. They remove it w/ a high pressure blast of water mixed w. baking soda. Works quite well, but we still have the stupid ban.

 

[CBL4]

Have each can be slightly different, and the police can therefore gather intelligence about graffiti "artists" by analyzing their "artworK'.

This would probably add about $50 to each can.

I prefer a more eye-for-an-eye approach. Each victim of a graffitti vandal should get to choose one personal belonging of the vandals to receive "artwork." Or perhaps "artistic" tattoos on the vandal's face.

CBL

 

[Tony]

Not only is it theft, it is often used by gangs to "stake out territory", and thus constitutes an implicit threat of violence. Often, people who paint over graffiti are assaulted or even killed.

That doesn't really address the question. This speaks nothing of the fundamentals of graffiti, instead, it speaks of gang culture. Gangs use graffiti yes, but so what? The Nazi's used graphic design, that doesn't mean graphic design is fundamentally wrong.

 

[crocodile deathroll]

Look here! A spray can alternative

There are a host of alternative devices graffiti artists/vandels (depends on your point of view) could turn to if spray cans were banned. Like paint rollers with extendable handles or brooms.

If a picture speaks TWO WORDS, this mess was done with long handled paint rollers and not with a spray can all. Perhaps we should paint rollers and brooms to non-professionals as well.

CDR

 

[coalesce]

coalesce,

I am sick of people taking things away from me because of some mythical societal good. Sometimes I get a little touchy and rant more than I should. I am sorry. I re-read your first post and it still seems extreme to me but I will accept that my bias makes me misread it. Again, I am sorry.

As for a solution, there is no true solution. Some products are used by 99% of the people properly and 1% improperly. We can accept this or punish the innocent. Neither is good. I always prefer freedom but I have learned that this is not a popular view.

I advocate tough sentences for repeat vandals and greater effort made to catch them.

Give me my spray paint, (my pseudofed, my pornography, my hookers, my gambling, my heroin) or give me death.

CBL

Please! There's no need for an apology. We're adults. We have opinions. There will be dissent. So what?!?! Is that an excuse to engage in name-calling or vituperative language? Well, since neither of us did, I say "no harm, no foul." And besides, we all need to be reminded that there's another side to a story, no matter how much we may not want to admit it.

You are 100% correct about there being no one true solution, and that's the biggest obstacle to overcome. We're all looking for the one simple solution to this problem where none exists. Grafitti's roots are not only in poverty, disenfranchisement, boredom, excess testosterone, or whatever liberal crutch some may want to paint it with, but also in the fact that PEOPLE CAN BE IDIOTS, and STUPID BEHAVIOR CANNOT ALWAYS BE LEGISLATED AWAY (there! I feel better now!).

And you can have your pseudofed, porn, hookers, gambling and heroin....

...but only if you brought enough for the rest of the class.

Michael