GOY

[Foolmewunz]

I was always intrigued by the origin of this moniker. Pronounced or spelled differently as "Ferengi", it was a corruption of "Frank", which was a general application in the Islamic world to describe Europeans. Star Trek popularised the term by creating a race of traders known for their unscrupulous business methods.

More interesting is that it managed to get to Thailand, via Persian traders, it's suspected, and that's the answer to the other one that looks similar. Farang is Thai for foreigner, borrowed freely from the Persians.

(A whole lot of argument I hadn't realized existed over the local etymology of both words, but it's pretty well established: frank/frankisch>>>ferengi/farangi>>>farang.

There's a stretch to take it to "barang" in Malay, but that doesn't seem to work.)

 

[Ravenwood]

Haole is Hawaiian for foreigner, it translates literally to "without breath"

 

[Foolmewunz]

Let's Try a Re-Rail (as opposed to derail)....

Moon - TFT (not lumping you together so don't get out your soap box, Tim)....

See how you can have a discussion, intelligently, on origins of words and expressions? In fact, you can look up many of the terms I mentioned and see discussions on etymology sites as to just the question suggested in the OP.... "Is farang... gweilo... gaijin... farangi... a negative term?" Fair game.

Tim, but when it comes from someone who's started eleventy-twelve threads on whether Stalin and the Jew Communists get sufficient bad press, and when it's got a "tag" that says "Jewish Conspiracy" and is posted in the Conspiracy section..... Well, you know what they say about ducks and walking, talking, and constantly being seen in the company of same, right?

 

[Old Bob]

The English Octopus, how true. All coming from the second Crown of England in the square mile in London with the Jewish Mason banks. The lion with it's foot on the World as shown in the GMH badge.

 

[Cuddles]

OK, this thread is supposed to be about the meaning of the word "goy". A lot of posts are vaguely related to this, but please can we leave the conspiracies and racism for another thread?

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Darth Rotor]

I cant think of any religion that has a nice way of refering to those who have another faith. they are called heretics, unbelievers, anti-christs, etc etc.

No, anti-christ is a very narrowly used term. Your other examples, like infidel, are spot on. The general term used most often is "them" and "they" with a negative connotation.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Actually, Alter Cocker Bob, "Shabbos goyim" refers to non jews who do work on the sabbath that Orthodox Jews are not permitted to do.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, and you can see the changers in old English Dictionary's.

How old? What year did it change, and what words are you referring to?

 

[billydkid]

Troll

Wait. I never knew exactly what "Goy" meant aside from referencing gentiles.

 

[Thunder]

To be fair to Moon, I have had many Jewish friends, and have many Jewish relatives.

I have never...ever...heard the word "Goy" used in a positive context. It has always been meant to be negative.

This....we Jews must work on. But Muslims call non-Muslims "Kufar" and blow up Jews, Christians, and other Muslems with suicide bombs.

So clearly, our issue with name calling, in the greater scheme of world conflicts, is miniscule.....at least compared to suicide bombings.

 

[Foolmewunz]

To be fair to Moon, I have had many Jewish friends, and have many Jewish relatives.

I have never...ever...heard the word "Goy" used in a positive context. It has always been meant to be negative.

This....we Jews must work on. But Muslims call non-Muslims "Kufar" and blow up Jews, Christians, and other Muslems with suicide bombs.

So clearly, our issue with name calling, in the greater scheme of world conflicts, is miniscule.....at least compared to suicide bombings.

Parky, I only agree with this insofar as there's an ingrained sort of elitism in the culture, e.g. having it driven home for your whole life that you are of "the chosen". But we have that discussion in Asia, also... all the time.

Is "gweilo", which literally translates into ghost, a negative term? To the Chinese, it is... but again only insofar as Chinese are xenophobic and think that anything non-Chinese is naturally not as good as anything Chinese, culturally at any rate. The best etymology for gweilo requires that you understand that the Chinese don't address things directly but like to go through circuitous routes. A ghost is to a man - the exact opposite - as a westerner is to a Chinese. In short, it was saying that westerners were so different from Chinese as to be opposites.

Similar underlying reasoning applies to the use of gaijin in Japan. Or to waigworen used in Mandarin. In fact, waigworen really states the case. It literally means other-country-person. You're not from here - China - so you're from somewhere else and that says enough. Never mind where that somewhere else is.

I grew up in a Jewish community, of a Jewish family. And I can't say I ever met more than 10% of people who used goy as though it was a slur or negative. It just was.

 

[Thunder]

well, I was raised around more Orthodox folks in NYC. Folks who still thought talked like they did in the old world. The term "goy" was rhoutinely used to refer to Gentiles. "Schwartzes" was used (and is used) for blacks. These are not terms of endearment.

My chinese friends call me "Bok Gwai" which is Cantonese for "white ghost". This is basically what they call white people. it is obviously not a positive term.

i know a hispanic guy who called me "gringo" and "blancito". again, two not nice terms.

so yes, Jews do have a problem with referrinng to non-Jews in deretogatory ways. but so do many other ethnic groups. Jews are definately not special.

I wonder what Finns call Jews? I know Russians and Poles call us "Zhids".

 

[Foolmewunz]

Parky, it may just be that your Chinese friends don't like you? Bok gwai (gwei) is sort of an insult, but a mild one. But it's not used as a general term here.

As to goy... I've heard it used as an insult, but I've also heard it used as a neutral term and even affectionately. Yes, there's always that underlying theme - it's an outsider or someone who's different. But is that always an insult? Or just a statement of fact.

BTW, when I'm talking of growing up Jewish, I'm speaking of New York. My best friend's family owned a shop on the Diamond Strip. I lived on the Lower East Side. Family and connections out on the Babylon Turnpike, lower Merrick, Greenpoint, etc.... So I think we're speaking of the same community.

 

[Jeff Corey]

well, I was raised around more Orthodox folks in NYC. Folks who still thought talked like they did in the old world. The term "goy" was rhoutinely used to refer to Gentiles. "Schwartzes" was used (and is used) for blacks. These are not terms of endearment...

I thought that "schwartz" just meant black in german and Yiddish.
Doesn't it depend on the context and facial expressions and other stuff? If someone says, "Goyim, schwatzes, feh!" that's one thing. But what about this, a clip where Mel Brooks says, "Schwatzes! Na, don't be crazy" {The sound is a bit farblunget, but trust me.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsj4s9z-EAE

 

[LibraryLady]

I'm going to try to remember to look all this up at work tomorrow. I work at a place with remarkably old dictionaries, including Hebrew and Yiddish ones. I'll let you all know what I find.

 

[gtc]

Goyim means cattle. Hide the truth and milk the Goyim.

Old saying:

If you intend to milk cattle, be prepared for a surprise two times out of four.

You may want to be more specific about your cattle's gender.

 

[Thunder]

Those of us who are Jewish, understand what this thread is really about. The point is to prove that the Jews are an arrogant race, who think they are better then everyone else, and cannot be trusted.

Well guess what? Some Jews actually do believe that they are better then non-Jews.

And guess what else? Some Chinese, Japananese, blacks, Christians, Muslems, Hindus, British, Irish, Catholics, Russians, and others...also believe that they are better then everyone else.

But..for some odd...odd..reason..the arrogance and superiority complexes of these other groups..is rarely ever discussed. Oh why..can this be?

 

[Thunder]

Goyim means cattle. Hide the truth and milk the Goyim.

um...is that why the Bible refers to the Israelites as a "goyim"?

you are making no sense.

Goyim..is Hebrew. It literally and figuratively means "nation".

 

[stilicho]

so yes, Jews do have a problem with referrinng to non-Jews in deretogatory ways. but so do many other ethnic groups. Jews are definately not special.

So in this case isn't it like Canadians I know calling Americans "Yankees"? It is considered derogatory but it's not objectively derogatory.

The difficulty I have with the "goy" thing is that I've found the only people who find it offensive are anti-semites. Frankly, I wouldn't consider it any better or worse than "cracker" which, in case you didn't know, was used in Woodrow Wilson's compilation of political speeches.

It isn't just ethnic groups who distinguish other ethnic groups by desultory names either. Poles are as European as anyone and "suffered" the term "Polack" for decades. British citizens are called "Limeys" sometimes and it's not considered a compliment.

I find, moreover, that the filter on JREF removes some specific uncomplimentary terms but allows others to remain. I figured we were all adults here but apparently the moderators and operators don't think that highly of us. And it's probably all your fault, parky!

 

[stilicho]

I am not familiar with Old Bob; is this kind of idiotic rant his usual style?

I just posted a cartoon, circa 1895, of the "English Octopus" emblazoned with the word "Rothschilds" and he recognised it instantly as correct.